The Efficiency of Different Card Memorization Systems

Here are some interesting tips I found on the Yahoo group:
groups.yahoo.com/group/memorysports/message/1733

Boris Konrad:

I only have got one image per card and location. Its pretty fast for me, but you see the desastrous consequences of it, when you look at my results in any long card discipline.

In response to a comment about his being able to memorize 11 packs of cards like that:
groups.yahoo.com/group/memorysports/message/1737

if I want to keep any ambitions to become World Memory Champion one day, I have to double that I guess. Hannes has to explain the system himself, its complicated. He transform the cards to numbers to use his 1000 images. Its something like first number: the color (spade, diamonds...) of three cards, second, the value. But spade can be eather 0 or 4, wether its image is bigger than 9 or not. .... you see, its complicated ;) But its works for him!

Hannes’ card system:
groups.yahoo.com/group/memorysports/message/1259

I think the thread is interesting because it’s another example of high-performance card memorization with only one card per image per locus.

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Yesterday, Boris mentioned that he uses the Ben System in long card events:

"I dont think there are any special at all :) In Speed Cards I have a very simple 52 images for 52 cards system. No PO or PVO, just 52 images. I learned those from Steffen Bütow and we have published it on memoryxl.de in German.

For the longer events I realized that I struggle with the high number of repetitions of the images.

f.e. King of Hearts is a doctor, so I have 20 doctos if I try 20 decks in an hour. So for the long events I try to use the Ben system. But I never got fast enough with it for Speed Cards. So I just do both. Simple system for speed cards. Ben System for longer cards events. Very similiar I do in numbers. For Spoken I use a simple two-digit system that is very fast, but for the marathons and historic dates I use a three-digit-system."

I’m a little confused though – is it the two-card Ben System, or one card with 20 different possibilities based on the category?

I wonder if it’s similar to Nelson’s idea of using the images from a smaller system as categories for a larger system? I was thinking about redoing my Ben System with categories like that, but I don’t know when I’m going to ever have time to finish. :slight_smile:

He meant that when he uses 52/52, he sees the exact same images over and over, which he finds problematic

It’s the way that the 2-card system works that I didn’t completely understand. The Ben System turns two cards into a single image…

If it’s a single card system with 20 variations for each card, that would be 1,040 images, so it seems like it would be easier to learn than the Ben System while still reducing the duplicate image problem. :slight_smile:

Great post. I had ever confused about lot of system to follow. Now it seems clear for me which system for which purpose. Thanks Josh :slight_smile:

Josh, either your post went completely over my head, or you are still missing what Boris was trying to explain. So at the risk of sounding either foolish or patronizing, let me make one more attempt at interpreting those quotes:

Boris: ā€œI only have got one image per card and location. Its pretty fast for me, but you see the desastrous consequences of it, when you look at my results in any long card discipline.ā€

[Lance: But Boris, if it is fast for you, then what could be the problem? Is it that you do not have enough loci?]

Boris: ā€œFor the longer events I realized that I struggle with the high number of repetitions of the images.ā€

[Lance: You see the exact same images repeated more than once? Please explain, Comrade Konrad…]

Boris: "f.e. King of Hearts is a doctor, so I have 20 doctos [each identical with the others] if I try 20 decks in an hour. "

So far so good. He has explained that the identical images, (52 identical images with every new deck) become overwhelming, so he needs a way to reduce the frequency of each image appearing. In these cases, he uses the Ben System, not a variation of it. The ā€œvariation on each of the 52 imagesā€ idea that you posted above is something 100% original to you, either created on purpose or because of a misinterpretation. There is no ā€œ1024ā€ system - just a 52 system. If he had a ā€œ1 card-20 variations-1024ā€ system, he would ostensibly have no reason to adopt a Ben System, period, provided those 20 variations were sufficiently distinct. So, that system doesn’t exist, which is why the images are indistinct, which is why he is sometimes forced to use the Ben System, even though he does not prefer it.

Right?

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It means Boris is faster at converting the images of 52 cards and memorizing them so, he uses this for short events, like speed cards. This will take up 52 locations.

If he did the same thing at the World Memory Championship and went for, say 10 decks, he would need 520 locations because it is object only, not person and action or some two digit system equivalent…

This is a lot of locations so, he does not want to waste them. Some locations are also better than others.

If he used the same 52 locations for perhaps two decks, he may get the ace of spades mixed up with the ace of spades from the second deck. They could end up in the same location.

Using a bigger, more complicated system means he can store more cards in less locations. He knows he cannot yet do it at the same speed as he can with the simpler system he uses. This means, until he becomes as fast with the Ben System, he will likely continue to do it this way. If he gets faster at memorizing the cards using the Ben System, he is likely to drop the 52 card system. If he doesn’t, he may change strategy altogether and do something like, making a new 52 card system to add to his existing system. This way he wouldn’t get the cards mixed up with his other 52 card system so, he could use the same locations to memorize twice as many without the risk of mixing them up. Probably, he won’t and will go with the most efficient method as he is already doing.

This will take a lot of training because mastering 52 images is much easier than mastering over 1000.

The same is true of numbers. If you already trained to be fast with a 2 digit system, probably you will use it for speed numbers but, if you have also made a 3 digit system, there is much more training needed. 100 numbers are much easier to master than 1000 so, it will take ten times longer to train the 1000 to be as good as the 100.

But, if you only have a set amount of locations which you personally consider good or great, you may decide to make the most of that space and use the bigger more complicated system for hour numbers. This will leave a pretty large amount of locations that you consider good.

You may then use those good locations for something else, like spoken numbers. If you do, it will be easier to use the smaller system for this so that amount of time spent converting numbers into images is reduced. If you use a big system for the spoken numbers, there is a risk that you will lose a lot of points if there is just one 3 digit number that is not so well trained or not yet perfected.

Still, you would need to train the smaller system also. You can train much more efficiently if you spend time doing spoken numbers using a smaller system if it contains 100 images than you can 1000. You could, if you wanted, make a one digit system. It would be a bit boring but, you could train it fast for spoken numbers only. Such a system would take up a lot of locations so, you don’t tend to hear of it being done. If you did Spoken Numbers 100 and Spoken Numbers 400 using a single digit system by the same principle, it would take 500 locations if the system was object only. Speed can be trained faster but, you would lose a great deal more in terms of locations, as well as sanity.

Samples:

1 Digit - Easy to train fast but, tedious and takes a lot of locations. (500 locations needed)
1 Digit p/a (2 Digit) - Easy to train and still tedious. Not so many locations. (250 locations needed)
2 Digit - Major system. Reasonable use of space and not so hard to train. (250 locations needed)
2 Digit p/a (4 digit) - Efficient on storage but, conversion time may lead to missing spoken numbers. (125 needed)
3 Digit Major - Need to hold first 2 digits in your head before you hear the third. Very risky. (166.66 needed)

With a 2 digit p/a, it can be made safer by just using the person action as 2 digits instead of 4. This will make it much the same as the Major 2 digit. It will be memorize instead of wait for the next two digits in order to determine the action. So, instead of 22 being 2222 as it would be in marathon events, it would simple be 22 and the number is stored. Minimal time is wasted whilst listening by not actually memorizing.

The important thing is that you cannot memorize any sequence until you actually know the numbers. Spoken Numbers are fast, conversion time is very important so, this is why I used them to help explain. If a person uses a 3 digit system for spoken numbers they cannot memorize anything until they hear that 3rd number, when they hear the 3rd number, the person using 2 digits has already memorized the first two but, they now have to create the image that another competitor has completed with less risk of losing concentration.

The opposite is true in long events. You may still have a rubbish image for a number but, you have time to make adjustments.

I understood the part about repeating images. I’ve noticed the same problem with my 100-image system. The part I didn’t quite get was this:

"f.e. King of Hearts is a doctor, so I have 20 doctos if I try 20 decks in an hour."

Does it mean that if he goes for 24 decks he uses images for 24 different doctors? In the Ben System, the number of doctors wouldn’t depend on the number of card decks. That would be a new type of system (and a very interesting one).

I should have asked him when he was here, but there wasn’t much time. :slight_smile:

I wonder how Simon Reinhard keeps up with his 10,000 images. Have you ever come across a full description of his 10,000-image system?

IIRC, I think Boris said that he was using a 3-digit system for numbers, but 2-digit for spoken numbers. Someone else in the forum said something interesting like that about using a simpler system for spoken numbers by only placing one image per location, just for that event.

When I first started with memory techniques, I suspected that Dominic O’Brien and Wang Feng might be using more complex systems than the ones they publicly talk about. It seems very difficult to handle repeated images in marathon events. I thought that Boris was an interesting example of a simple system that produced amazing results and that it might prove that simple systems work just as well. Now I am again wondering if some of the top mnemonists use systems that are more complex than the ones they talk about. :slight_smile:

Simon’s system I don’t know, Dominic’s is well known and Wang Feng’s is the same as any Western system but personalized. He uses two digits for numbers. He also makes his system public in China as do most competitors there. In China, the most common systems are called the Lenovo system, Pile System and and Hutchinson system if I understand the translations correctly. The principles are the same as the rest of the World and they are aware of other systems and use them. Maybe an image will be a number shape, maybe the image will be encoded in some other way, rather than strictly keeping to the rules of the system.

Efficiency for me may not be the same as efficiency for the next person. It makes sense for Dominic not to over-complicate things because he has enough locations for the long stretch that is the World Memory Championships but, Ben Pridmore has vastly less locations so, the option of simplification is not such an easy choice for Ben as compared to Dominic.

If you have, for example, 500 locations in total, you need to store a lot of information in a small space and therefore need a complex system like Ben’s but, this makes spoken numbers a higher risk. Using a single digit for example would use every one of those locations for spoken numbers alone and that’s a relatively short event at the WMC so, there’s a trade off for people with less locations.

You can use the same locations by having two systems and re-using them because the two systems have different images representing the different things so, they won’t get mixed up even though the same locations have been used. Doing this in a long event if fine but, speed events make it a little risky.

If you have a couple or few thousand locations, you can afford to minimize the risk by allocating locations for each event as a separate entity and, having done that, you can decide to allocate 10 different systems for the 10 events.

Alternately, a simple system, like Boris uses for short events, would result in not only 25 Doctor’s for each of the 25 decks. That’s a bit repetitive. That means he will have every single image repeated 25 times, or however many decks he does, so, a more complicated system makes it less tedious in long events as well. If you have lots and lots of storage space and you train a lot then, the images are going to have numerous imprints upon all of your locations.

In a three digit system, you can see a thousand three digit numbers without actually seeing the same image twice.
With a two digit system it will be a higher rate of repetition. Obviously it’s unlikely that would happen but, in theory, it’s much less boring. Mixing people and actions up seem to make things more interesting but, after a time, you will be so familiar with your actions and objects they will not be used in any creative sense that engages the brain and more of a ā€˜i’m just dropping Dominic off in the kitchen to represent 40’ doing whatever action that you also know like the back of your hand.

You can’t really get more efficient that the Dominic System for everyday life and learning but, a competition isn’t everyday life. It’s not everyday life to become a World Memory Champion. Anyone that has to train the amount needed to get to that level will obviously know their images so well that there is no longer any creative thought as there would be outside competition when time is not of the essence, would find it much less repetitive to have a bigger more complicated system just because it will seem more interesting due the the much larger variety of pictures.

For anyone two sells their system and trains it to others, it may make them not want to change.

The paradox is that the simplest system to learn by definition, is single digit. To use single digits in a competition is okay if you have just started on your journey of memory but, it’s really only available for use to those people with a vast store of locations available to them if they intend to use it for efficiency purposes. So, even though it’s the lowest risk for something like spoken numbers and the fastest system to learn which by definition makes it highly efficient, the newcomer will not likely have enough locations to cope with this. Hence the popularity of two digit systems of various types.

Ok… now I suddenly realized what I was missing. :slight_smile:

When he wrote this:

"f.e. King of Hearts is a doctor, so I have 20 doctos if I try 20 decks in an hour."

I thought he meant that he creates a new kind of system with 20 different doctors (which is an interesting idea) – but he means he sees 20 repeating versions of the same doctor. This is not a description of his new system, but is what he is trying to avoid.

Sorry… I missed your note embedded in the quote.

I didn’t get it because with a simple system you don’t get exactly 20 doctors for 20 decks – you get a variable number of repeating doctors that is random. And the word ā€œhaveā€ can either mean ā€œhave preparedā€ or ā€œgetā€ā€¦

Edit: No, scratch that part. I am just stupid. You get 20 doctors with 20 decks. You get a random number of them with long number events, not cards. :confused:

You don’t think he has a more complicated system for the marathon events like hour cards and numbers? Maybe he uses a 2-digit, single-card system for everything, but it’s pretty incredible to be able to do that with 23 decks of cards. Or Dominic with his 50+ decks. :slight_smile:

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Nope, most Chinese mnemonists systems are pretty basic. They master the Loci and they are wise to to so in my opinion.

Yes, Careless, I can. I know it as a fact.

If you wish to discuss and use such phrases as FALSE GENERALIZATIONS then it makes no odds to me personally but, I use my name. My name is well known, not for being good at memorization but because of my level of understanding and often you make claims lately on here saying this and that is not trusted or cannot be known. You are wrong and speak when you should listen. Not trusted this and that cannot be known rubbish. It can be and is known. We, not just me, know some things for certain.

Incidentally, I can prove all the things I say on here as scientifically as any scientific institution without and association with making money via publishing deals etc. You on the other hand, could be trusted in such a way and could be Daniel Tammet/Corney as you do not reveal who you are. You are welcome to use your own name rather than hide behind a pseudonym if you so wish.

It seems to me that you try and contradict people in this site on a regular basis and a separate discussion already exits regarding you in particular doing this. Better I think for you to just improve you knowledge or not be of such an attitude to pretend to understand and give advice on the things you aren’t really familiar with.

I think you’re spot-on.

It surprises me how many people work on their images, change their systems, improve their images, etc. yet fail to work on their loci to the same degree.

Oh, yes, Boris does sorry. That’s what I meant Josh. He has a simple system for one deck than for marathon cards.

I think I misinterpreted Boris’ quote, and then I missed the part where DoubleHelix embedded the correction to my mistake in a quote. :~

Yes, I couldn’t agree more Graham. I think people are quick to forget that is in itself a system. When I fist started to meet other mnemonists the first thing I would always ask would be how many locations do you have ? The responses I got surprised me on some occasions.

I think you most likely know Dr. Yip Swe Chooi from some competition when you were both active in competition. I had one such surprising response from him.

He said he had about 10, 000 locations. I politely explained that this was not only unlikely but, that it’s virtually impossible. I proceeded to explain that what I mean by location was something the size of a room as in the term Roman Room. To have such a large number is reasonable but, they won’t be familiar.

I went on to explain that, I had many jobs in different factories in the past and would frequently change my job. This gave me lots of machinery and a vast amount of locations compared to most people. At some point, I was a post man for a year and, after a decade of factory work I had a career change and spent most of the next decade canvassing so, I was walking around different towns all the time. This gives me an obvious advantage in the same way as a London taxi drivers in terms of locations.

He, as a person with the title of Doctor would very unlikely have changed jobs for the sake of it at the rate that I used to and, as such, it would be inconceivable that he would have as many locations as this that were all familiar.

Dr. Yip went on to explain that under these terms, he has 3-4,000 locations. This was clearly the correct answer in the context of what I was trying to find out. The context I usually give is a location is a room or some place that is the size of at least a small room on the average.

Personally, I have 2,000 locations in the context of a location being a room or some place of equivalent size. This is obviously more than most but, only half of what Dr. Yip or Dominic has.

I asked the same of Ben in 2008 and I was really shocked to find that he only had 500. As I think you know, he knows these locations very well and that’s the important thing. I say only, he became World Memory Champion for the third time later that year so, it’s obviously a lot still.

As it happens, even though I don’t ask this question anywhere near as often as I used to, I did happen to ask Dr. Yips protege this same question today. Andy Fong, who, like Dr. Yip has also memorized a dictionary has significantly less than Dr. Yip. Actually, we haven’t finished the conversation but, in the same terms I estimate Andy’s number of room sized locations as pretty much the same as mine but, he measure them in the same way as Dr. Yip…

I always make this distinction for a reason. I spent many years studying mnemonics but, I knew there were these people that had something I didn’t. I knew it existed as my Grandfather had stuck his car number plate in my head as a child. I literally read it once and I still remember it thirty years later. When I did eventually find it I already knew it was the single most important memory system and I considered it would be so before I even found it as a system. I say found, I didn’t work it out. I spent many years trying to and failed. Eventually I found it in a book and two memory courses all in the space of one month by three authors.

One thing I know from working in these factories and driving forklift trucks is that, no matter what memory system you do use, you cannot fit a square peg in a round hole. A shelf will only store a box up to a certain size and a location is no different.

I often teach people memory and this is by far the biggest problem and it’s not generally covered by memory books in great detail.

Typically, someone will ask me for some help. Usually, they understand a 100 digit system and are either in the process or making one or they already have done.

It’s a big disappointment to some of them when I do start to teach them because, if they have started and they have used their locations in the same way as Doctor Yip and Andy Fong, the first thing I do is to spot it then dismantle it. This is something they are very reluctant to allow me to do. But, it’s something they end up happy with having done it.

Once they have taken apart say, 50 locations after I have explained this is really on about 10 locations, I tell them to make more. Once they have made more, I go through them with them. They have to describe the layout of the room to me or, if it’s outside, the view, the material the floor is made of, what the bath is made of in the bathroom and so on.

Once I can understand the locations myself, I can put images in that I create but, using people that they know. So, I already know that the objects I use will be strong and I give them guidance on the type of people to use because they will be familiar to them. Hence the word family as well. In doing so, I will number their locations for them and they have to imagine it. Sometimes, they don’t know what they are memorizing because I throw in images from different systems.

So, in the space of ten locations I will typically number them with ten images but, the images may come from different systems so just ten numbers will be perhaps, the Major system, the Dominic system, the Number Rhyme system or the Number Shape system.

Like clockwork they always recognize that I am instructing them to number their locations because they will recognize the pattern which is the same or similar to whichever book they have read. Then, I explain that they can use any system and this is why I vary the images. To teach them that the systems are interactive and that they all work equally well but, one system is not equal to the others.

That system as you know, is the Roman Room system. I spend a great deal of time with them in the beginning just memorizing ten numbers. Ten single digit numbers will usually take me about four hours to teach. Obviously I could stick a ten digit number in their head in next to no time but, I prefer to keep their focus on what’s important.

Dr. Yip and Andy are obviously excellent mnemonists and I steer people in a different direction from their system but, I do it for a reason. It’s not the best way to start off. It works and it works extremely well but, if someone learns by using parts or a room as they do, they soon come unstuck when faced with something unexpected they have to memorize as the necessary images won’t fit into the allocated space. Shrinking images is obviously one solution but, somethings are not easy to see when this is done and it is also quite hard to do. Better to learn the other way around and use this maximum storage system they use after gaining experience. Then, you can do both if you want.

After spending considerable time with people teaching them how to interact with any given location they sometimes confess that one of the numbers makes no sense to them. This is like a red herring number to them. I sometimes put in a number that has no connection to the image or person. I do this to emphasize the power of the system of location. They pretty much instantly realize that, the object does not need to resemble the number in any way because we have created and association and familiarity by using the location.

Anything can be connected as you know and many of my numbers are completely arbitrary but, they are very clear images of people and things. I don’t really care if there is no connection between my images and numbers because I will make a connection by using the power of the location.

My normal recommendation is something I pinched off the Government. 5 a day like fruit and veg. I ask people to make 5 locations per day. Often, they want to do more but, the rule is, if you make 10 today, you still have to make 5 tomorrow. This means that there is no excuse for anyone I teach to say, I didn’t have time. If they don’t have time to do that, I don’t have time to teach them.

This is ongoing and after the first episode/s or numbering, with me telling them a lot about why they remember the images we have created together and teaching them how to interact with seemingly empty or inert locations, they have to memorize 5 a day as well. So, they have to do a little bit of thinking each day because I have taken the stabilizers off the bike so-as-to-speak. This focuses their mind on just 5 numbers but, whereas Ben Pridmore would have had thousands of interactions with each number of his, they have not, so, they need to ā€˜get familiar’ or ā€˜make associations’. They have the locations to do it first and can put the new numbers in those locations thus, they are growing their memory organically. This also removes the fear of ā€˜running our of places’.

Just doing 5 a day seems pointless to them usually as they have generally read a book that gives them big hopes of some massive thing they intend to memorize. However, this focus serves a purpose. Firstly, it makes them have no reason to put it off. Doing this small amount each day is an easy load for the brain to cope with but, the rules of Ebbinghaus still apply so, in a short time, they can become really good. I do have speed exercises for them but, this is not really important. The only reason I give them instruction on how to speed up is because there’s a good chance they will think they know enough by this point and not see any new improvement.

It’s a hard thing for many to grasp that by spending more time thinking about something in as many ways as possible makes something familiar and gives them new associations they can attach things to.

I think of it like this. If someone can write 5 locations per day, they have enough to become World Memory Champion within 100 days. Realistically, this isn’t going to happen but, it’s enough to explain the point when they want to jump ahead before they are ready. IT’s not the system, it the familiarity with the system and familiarity with the locations.

By reading about someone like Ben, they may want to use a Major 1,000 system. I steer them away from this like the plague. Their reasoning is usually that the best mnemonists in the World use this system. What I tell them is that, if they want to use the Major system then, use the Major 100 system first. Usually I get some resistance to this with statements like, I would be better off learning the bigger system because over time I will have spent more time using that system and this is quite logical.

Usually, this can be explained with the single digit system being compared to the alphabet. A person may want to learn to speed read or write a book but, first they need to ā€˜master’ the alphabet. Dominic O’Brien uses a simpler system than this and Wang Feng uses a simpler system than Dominic. The one thing they have in common is that they have both mastered these systems.

If a person masters the Major 100 system first then, when they have mastered it and find it a bit tedious because they are memorizing marathon events in training or something then, it does make sense for them not to get bored or risk getting images mixed up due to the quantity and similarity or material so, it’s pretty easy to stick a zero in front or every number up to 99 to make the Major 100 the for first 100 of the Major 1,000. Instantly they will notice that they are still awesome at the first 100 and complete rubbish at the last 900.

For anyone that doesn’t go around memorizing a couple of thousand digits in one sitting, the 100 systems are not worth changing. Why learn a 1,000 digit system if you only ever memorize lists of 100 things or even 500 things ? It’s not until you memorize an amount against the clock that is large enough to cause confusion by mixing up images that it become worth it or if you don’t mix up the images as Boris does and are able to do such vast memorization and just get fed up of seeing the same old images.

So, given all this, it’s clear that the important thing about systems is knowing which system to study. To me this is obvious nowadays, it’s the location system.

I think that even if I sat down now, I could write another 2,000 locations that I have actually been to by using Google Earth but, for most people, they will not have actually been to this many locations. I am 40 years you so, my age means that I will have four times more locations than a ten year old and two times more locations as a twenty year old on the average but, I have seen the locations more times.

Every time we visit a location we are hard-wired to remember it and I happen to have visited lots but, some people have stayed in the same jobs for years. People who like walking may have many more outside locations than people who like talking who may have many locations inside friends houses. A person that has had the same office at work for 20 years will know that office better than a person like me who might have changed jobs. Changing jobs is more common with young people and I was the same.

My point is this. We all have a limit. We can exceed this limit but, at any given point in time each of us is only ā€˜familiar’ with a given number of locations. We can ā€˜make’ ourselves familiar with new ones by visiting them or fake it by using Google Earth and it will work, albeit to a lesser extent.

As we talked of Boris already, he happens to be a prime example of extending his familiarity. One year I was wandering around London making locations. I watch a lot of politics and news so, it made sense to me to take this walk around the places I see most often on television. Places like Big Ben, Parliament, Buckingham Palace are always on the television so, I knew these would be reinforced constantly even though I rarely go to London.

I walked around first and decided that I knew the layout of the journey I wanted. Then, I walked around the journey again. It was about 100 locations of a large size with some later alteration with Google Earth. I then walked around these repeatedly. I walked it backwards as well. It was a roasting hot day and I could have easily made many more locations but, I wanted to make good ones rather than make say 500 locations for the sake of it. If I wanted to get poor quality locations, i’d have done it from Google Earth. I remember sweating because it was so hot. I remember how I felt, I remember talking to a policeman and asking him what a building was called. I remember the coffee I had outside Parliament. The locations are to me ā€˜emotionalized’.

What’s this got to do with Boris ? Well, after I finished, i went back to the beginning of my journey. There, I bumped into Boris. Boris had been doing exactly the same thing as me. I hadn’t bumped into him though because he had used the same starting point but, gone in a different direction. I would have no idea where to go in Berlin but, it must be like London. London is full of memorable landmarks so, I advised Boris that, if he gets the chance, he would be better off going the opposite way to the places I had been as he would be more likely to see these on television for reinforcement in future. Not surprisingly, Boris was already aware of this and had already constructed a journey in exactly this place on a previous visit to London. He knew how important it was as well.

By the way, Graham, I like your posts. I tried to work out who you were before you revealed your name and had you narrowed down to two people by using the rankings from things you said. Hopefully you will get back to competitions some day. Even if you don’t fancy getting all hard-core again like some of them, there’s always space for arbiters with competition experience.

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Dai Griffiths, very interesting post… So interesting that it made me rethink what I do. You mentioned locations, but I sensed from your post that the system I create the locations is maybe different. Maybe.

I take photos of each journey. Average number of stops is 50. Each stop has some ā€œoutstandingā€ object I associate images to when I’m memorizing.

I post here three consecutive images. I start the journey with the first image, then I move to the others. In this case, I call ā€œlocationā€ journey of 60 stops. This particular journey contains only objects from the park. As I see, I understand the location in some weird way.

For example, if I wanted to memorize number 4347, I would imagine ram (43) as is banging his head to the rock (47) placed on that white square you can see in the first picture. Is this bad? But I can say this works for me.

PS: I don’t want to make this ā€œpersonal adviceā€. Maybe I’m not alone who does the same thing.

I think you do it in the way I mean NIghwalker. With those same locations that you have, I would have each of them as the location as well. They look really good. What I also do it to make sure the surrounding are is also a part of the location but, you have plenty of space there so, you don’t really need to think about it in this case.

Where I do think about it is, for instance, where two objects like those are directly next to each other. An example would be outside a post office at the end of a street where I lived once. There is a post box and it is directly next to a telephone box. Both could be used as separate locations and it would work efficiently but, I use them as one. This way, if I am faced with the need to create an image of two men fighting, I can fit them there without running the risk of them overlapping the next location which could happen if I had them as separate locations.

Using locations this way, I number every location. If at some point in the future I decided to do what Andy Fong has done then, it’s not to hard to break up the location into it’s constituent parts. Each of those locations can also be numbered using a different numbering system. Then, small objects can be placed in them. Many Major system images that do not involve people can make up the information because the people and action system will not fit properly into these places without overlapping the next location. If it is just object then, they can fit easily.

By the same reasoning, I never use children in my person action systems because I want the people to be of a certain height. This way, if people are behind something, I can still see their face and they won;'t get obscured by something that is as big as them. I always, always see the person’s face. Even if I have to make them turn around or take a mask off. That face will show emotion and that will make a big difference.

If you were to see Dr. Yips dictionary you will see he must have some similar way of thinking. He will ask you to pick a page number. Say that page number is 250. On page 250 each word will be numbered from 1 -13 in the left column so, he can identify exactly where he is at any given time. Personally I think it’s mad that anyone would go to this extreme but, it’s still really impressive to see someone do it.

Another reason I don’t use children is because I create some pretty sick images. I keep a detailed record of this in writing as well but, somethings are just too sickening. Pretty much everyone I know or have ever met have done some bad images in my mind. I make a conscious effort to do this using colours of things like blood since we instinctively remember these things as, they represent danger and create emotion. If we get that feeling in a location, we instinctively need to remember where this potentially dangerous location is. I decide upon the colour as I create the system. If someone has a bright red pained bedroom, I will make the colour of something not red so that it sands our so, some of my images may vary but, if I can, I will use colours that by default grab my attention. Such as the colours of dangerous animals or food.

In Britain, we didn’t eat tomatoes for a long time just because they looked like poisonous fruit to my ancestors. There is a saying that is meant to be some kind of mnemonic that doesn’t seem very mnemonic but, it makes the point. A documentary about snakes I once saw said, Red on Black stay right back. Red on Yellow, at your peril.
I keep this in mind not just with snakes but, with everything. With people, blood is often the result which takes least effort to create. Think of the colour of tigers stripes, wasps, frogs, spiders. All associated with fear if they are the right colour.

To me personally, an animal with blue skin does bot exist but, I have seen lizards like this on television so, even if they are safe, the fact that I don’t know if they are has the same effect.

Red alone is memorable enough. Especially if an animal is coloured red. Same with food. We feel a red apple is safe in Britain though so, a blue one may be poisonous. I don’t do this on the fly. I often create systems as I like to do it even when I don’t need to so, as I am writing the things down, I test them, see how hard or easy things are to ā€˜imagine’ before writing anything. When I hit about 50, I time myself on recognition to see if they are up to scratch. I remove slow ones or alter them to make them clearer. A blue apple is hard to imagine on the fly as are many things but, by testing this sort of thing in advance I will find a way. I’ll get someone to bite it and the look on someones face will show them as unsure as they slowly take a bite, if they are the sort of person in real life that doesn’t care, i’ll add some maggots to the apple. Some nice red and black striped ones.

Red is the best for most purposes. We associate red with pain and danger but, we also associate it with desire because we feel safe that an animal is dead and now it represents food. Meat. This mixing of emotions makes red an awesome memory tool.

Hi,

thanks Dai for pointing out that you talk about me in this thread :wink:

First on the cards, I think it already has been resolved, DoubleHelix got it right.
The 20 doctors’ thing referred to 20 times exactly the same doctor - and is a description of my problem, not my solution.

Regarding locations, I guess I do it a bit differently than Dai. While in an outdoor setting like London (I lived in Reading for a year, so it is a familiar city for me), I do use bigger locations (whole tower of Big Ben as one location). I also have locations indoors where every single spot might be pretty small (like a bar of soap).

I do see, that I can fit in more information in a bigger location, BUT the limit of the size of the smaller ones does not seem to be to bas for me. I still can fit the names of all German presidents on the soap bar.

Anyway, for memory sports purposes I do prefer the smaller locations: Only one or two items per spot, doing those very quickly. I tend to ā€œloseā€ the images in big locations where it is not so clear, which part of it I made the association to. For long-term learning in university I preferred bigger locations for having more chances to expand the images or increase the number of images in one spot, while being slower learning and having repetitions.

For the first journey, the first set of locations, I would make the opposite recommendation to Dai. I suggest my students to have very specific small items as locations. In my seminars I always start the first journey in the seminar room placing at least 10 locations in the room. In my opinion it is easier for beginners to have a specific item to have your image interact with.

Regards,
Boris

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