Noob questions

General Memory Chat
1

I’m sorry if this has already been covered but I tried to do my own research and after an hour I thought I’d ask you smart people.

I am trying to do a 00-99 POA. Some of the lists I’ve found online that others have posted put ‘Sauce’ as their first item. This makes zero(hah) sense to me. How can 00 only have one S ? Am I missing something here? It’s not the only time I’ve seen this either, I’ve found this multiple times.

If you wanted to remember a number like 110,011 and you said ToaD + Sauce + ToaD you would get 11,011? Sauce does not have another component in it for it to be considered a 00. Is it because 0 = 00 ? Surely not…

Thanks!

  • T

Also, while I’m here, I see most of these forum posts using people as their numbers (like 00 = SS = Sylvester Stallone). Is this the better way of doing PAO? Or is using words like “Suit, Sun, Swim, Sore, Sail etc.” an acceptable way of doing this?

I guess what I’m really asking is what is the ‘better’ method. What has the memory community agreed on the ‘meta’ technique?

I’ve been using the ‘Hanzi Movie Method’ for learning Chinese so i know the benefit of using people/actors in combination with props! Very cool stuff.

1 Like
2

IMG_0617
IMG_06173024×4032 2.92 MB

3

I am trying to do a 00-99 POA. Some of the lists I’ve found online that others have posted put ‘Sauce’ as their first item. This makes zero(hah) sense to me. How can 00 only have one S ? Am I missing something here? It’s not the only time I’ve seen this either, I’ve found this multiple times.

Sauce has two “S sounds” as its a soft-c.

If you wanted to remember a number like 110,011 and you said ToaD + Sauce + ToaD you would get 11,011? Sauce does not have another component in it for it to be considered a 00. Is it because 0 = 00 ? Surely not…

Sauce is 00 see above.

Also, while I’m here, I see most of these forum posts using people as their numbers (like 00 = SS = Sylvester Stallone). Is this the better way of doing PAO? Or is using words like “Suit, Sun, Swim, Sore, Sail etc.” an acceptable way of doing this?

There is other systems that are not Major for creating a PAO list such as Dominic where you would use a persons intials (eg: Sylvester Stallone), or a category PAO. There is also a pure object system instead of PAO.

The best method is a matter of opinion, I personally think PA or PAO with a phonetic system (such as Major although I prefer custom phonetics) is the best for the majority and a 3 digit object phonetic system such as Ben or Major is best for a very small amount of people that are dedicated to training memory sports.

4

Hey @tsmith888! From one Tim to another, welcome!

All good questions. It can be pretty confusing at first, and there a wide range of opinions here, so take them all with with a grain of salt, including mine!

First, the Major System is based on SOUNDS. It is NOT based on the letters. The “C” there ins SauCe makes a “Suh” sound. Two “Suh” SOUNDS encode to 00.

A great example of this “sound, not letter” thing would be the word “CeLLoPHaNe,” which would decode to 0582

C makes “Suh” sound (0)
LL makes just a SINGLE “Luh” sound (5) (another Major System rule, two letters but just one SOUND made by them.)
PH makes a “Fuh” sound (8)
N make “Nuh” sound (2)

Its important to learn to associate the sounds, not the letters.

There is no such thing as “better” when it comes to technique or system. There is no “agreement” because its impossible to create a silver bullet technique that fits everyone’s preferred style. We all have different connections, associations, and experiences which inform how quickly or easily we take to one system or another.

I don’t know about “most” here. If your brain easily associates initials with people, it might work well to use the Dominic System to generate your people. I don’t like it too much as a component of a PAO because I think it creates too many extra conversion steps in the learning process. I prefer using the Major System to generate every element in my PAO system because they can all then be directly read from the number itself.

As far as whether using certain words or is “acceptable,” you can approach system building however you want. The important thing is that it makes sense to you and you can easily figure out how to encode and decode from it. The goal of a system is to eventually not need it any more. You want to build fluency so that you no longer need to step through conversions actively, the numbers just become the image elements that you need when you need them.

I would recommend avoiding mixing systems or using too many exceptions to your rules when building it, simply because you’ll need to keep track of what follows what rule or system for every element. This can slow you down and cause frustration, not to mention the extra brainpower and focus needed to remember the exceptions when learning or practicing.

For a few more thoughts on practicing PAO and an example of one way to do a complete Major System build, check these posts out:

1 Like
5

Maybe give a PO number list a try first. Try to create your objects or “props” based off the major system. Don’t worry if they don’t make sense for the people that are also associated to the same number. This is actually a plus, in my opinion, because it forces you to learn your list as “when 07 is a person, then it’s ZaCK” OR “when 07 is an object, the it’s a SoCK.”

Now the connection can be learned DIRECTLY from number to image, without linking the person and object together first.

Feel free to toss out any other questions or thoughts you may have as you explore! We’re happy to discuss and debate most anything!

1 Like
6

Hey! Thank you so much for the response! Very enlightening, I knew Major dealt with sounds specifically but when given the chart for 0 and the accompanying sounds ‘S, and Z’ I guess I was thrown off by the C being the second S sound. Makes total sense, phew, thank you!

Secondly, as I learn more about the world of PAO it’s funny to me that I blended both Dominic and Major in my example: 00 = SS = Sylvester Stallone, lol. Where as (I think) it should be 66 = SS.

I have finally come to the conclusion that PAO is not for me as I am not training for any sort of memory sport. PA seems like a perfect middle ground. 00-99 should be enough and I believe I can add to it in the future?

Thanks again Wonder,

  • T
7

Hey Tim! Nice name!

I really appreciate the thorough response. You really helped me iron out some of the finer details with all these different systems. I thought I learned a good amount before posting but I was clearly lacking some of the foundational points lol.

After reading your post I went and googled some of the topics you mentioned which almost always brought me back to artofmemory.com but once I got the hand of browsing the forum I found a lot of helpful posts in which I saw ‘TheHumanTim’ responding to almost everything! It’s like your famous around here lol

Anyways, between you and ‘Wonder’ I definitely understand SauCe now. As well as how the Major system works.

I guess when I said meta, I meant what are the pros doing. In which I found an interesting post ‘The death of PAO’ which discussed exactly that. The memory champions who are using different methods besides PAO to achieve really impressive times. I tried to keep up with the lingo but it was pretty confusing. I believe the difference is that traditionally you use 1 image = 1 card. While NON-PAO is 1 image = 2 cards. So you are able to memorize pairs of cards but that has you memorizing 2,700 images.

I dont mind using initials with people just because I think im used to it using the Hanzi Movie Method. I’ve found that with enough practice the associations disappear and you can access the image/scene without any conversion.

After re-reading what you said maybe I misunderstood. You said the ‘learning process’ which I think I understand now. You’re saying BEFORE I acquire/solidify the knowledge, the initials->person system makes the entire process of acquiring take longer(adding extra conversion steps as you say, especially in a 000-999 system.) Because regardless of how you obtain the image/scene, once you have it it is a very fast retrieval.

You mention trying out a PO. Is there a benefit to this over a PA? I find in the examples I’ve come across like Einstein writing on a blackboard very clear in my head. I know this is sort of like a PAO but I dont consider the blackboard an object. Its just extra fluff (for now) to bring the scene to life. As I will be able to introduce the blackboard in the future as an object if I expand to a 000-999.

In one of your linked posts you shared:
“Location/Adjective/Character/Action/Object/Card” list. So instead of a PAO this is a LACAOC? and does this method allow you to create 12 digit numbers? 000000000000-999999999999

I understand that if you are walking around your memory palace you can have more information at each loci. But if your mini-story gets to be too long, you need to start memorizing your memorization lol.

I think I’m starting to blabber now, I don’t know where else I’m going with this. I hope I’m not coming off as aggresive or anything, I am just super curious about this new world I’ve stumbled upon. I really appreciate the discussion!

  • T

One more thing I couldnt find in my searches: Should you stick to one sound per number? The Major method says S or Z for 0. If I choose S should I use S for every iteration of 0 going forward? Or is it okay to use S or Z interchangably. If so that would open up a lot more words to work with.

Oops, sorry one more thing! Just came to me.
How can you have a PA/PO in a Major system if you use words like:

43 - worm
44 - aurora
45 - rail
etc.

I thought the whole point is that P is Person(?). How would you combine Aurora with an action/object? Are we personifying the first element in PAO? If we used something like Rail, isnt that an object? Doesn’t that throw off the whole order of operations? I’ve seen multiple posts of people using very obscure words just because they fit the Major system.

My only guess is that they are using a singular system that doesn’t involve objects or actions.

Thanks!

8

Haha, nah, I just like to jump in and have discussions a lot!

I personally like PO over PA because I think its easier to visualize consistent and vivid tangible things, nouns.

If you have “People” (which is just shorthand for “primary subject / character” since your “person” could be a non-human, an anthropomorphic object, animal, cartoon character, etc…) and “Objects” (objects being non-primary characters, inanimate objects, animals etc…) Then you can have the “person” interact with the “object” in whatever way you want. It can be very instinctual and quick to pair those elements together via natural action.

If you just have people and actions, there usually needs to be another secondary subject or thing that the action is happening to or with. I just think its easier to quickly link P and O than come up with what the P is doing the A to. Of course, if you’re setting all these scenes within loci of a memory palace. You could make the P do the A to the Loci… There’s lots of ways to approach it! Again, no best or better way, just what works for you.

9

So, those would be the “Objects.”

Although, I don’t love “auRoRa” as its a little bit abstract. I like to have objects that are easy to picture characters interacting with, especially if its a PAO. woRM is a great object. Lots of sensory stuff there, the sliminess, wiggliness, emotional “grossness” connection.

10

Incredibly fast times have been achieved with many different systems. The consistent factor is almost always TONS of practice to the point of fluency. If you can get to the point where you see a number and don’t have to do any mental conversion or effort to have the associated imagery spring to mind, and you’re familiar with your imagery to a point where you instinctively know how to visualize it interacting memorably, you can rip through a string of numbers as if reading a picture book.

So when it comes to numbers and cards, there’s tradeoffs and benefits to expanding to higher compression ratio systems.

With a 2-digit PAO, there’s 300 elements to memorize. You can compress two digits into a single element.

With a 3-digit system, the advantage is a 33% compression boost. You get three digits per element, which is really nice. The tradeoff is now you have to learn and get fluent with 1000 associations.

For cards, one card per element is ok, you can use PAO in cards too 156 elements will need to be learned. This doesnt take too long and can get you fast times.

If you want to get double the data compression in your card image associations, you can learn a 2-card system where every possible pair (2704 of them) gets a unique element associated with it. This is clearly MUCH more of an effort, but cuts the number of elements needed to memorize the deck in half. You can also use a 2-card 2-block system where you “only” have to associate 1352 images. That would take a while to explain, there are other posts that go into detail about those.

I posted a comparison of the time needed to review each element in different systems, and it was pretty eye opening to work out. You might find it interesting as you’re still in the early stages of figuring out what you want to try. No matter the system, there will be a sizable time investment required, its up to you to determine if that tradeoff is worth it.

Exactly. Pretty much all systems can eventually get you to the goal of instant association. I personally think some get you there faster without you developing habits that you’ll need to drop later. But lots of people do great with those systems. Important thing is to try it and see!

I initially tried making those categories to see if I could make them fit the Major System phonetics. The “cards” section isnt really part of the numbers system, its just showing how Major can be used to assign easily readable words/images to playing cards and how you can use the elements you already know to build a card system.

I used Person Action Adjective Object to memorize Pi out past 4000 digits. This approach squeezed 8 digits into each scene and worked really well. I’ve only ever used the “Location” category when memorizing a binary sequence without the use of a memory palace. The first digits give the Location which set the context for the PAAO scene which followed.

You’re right about having this be overkill and making things confusing to keep the sequences straight. Systems really boil down to how many digits can you squeeze into a single ELEMENT, not really as much of digits-per-scene. You could have 20 different categories that you could combine to memorize 40 digits in a single “scene” but at the end of it, you still need to decode each element one by one in the correct sequence. Nowadays, I favor smaller “scenes” that are more memorable, spread out across more loci that I know well. Same total numbers, less brainpower to construct and visualize each scene.

11

I know it can be confusing at the start but it seems like you have a good grasp on things now.

I guess when I said meta, I meant what are the pros doing. In which I found an interesting post ‘The death of PAO’ which discussed exactly that. The memory champions who are using different methods besides PAO to achieve really impressive times. I tried to keep up with the lingo but it was pretty confusing. I believe the difference is that traditionally you use 1 image = 1 card. While NON-PAO is 1 image = 2 cards. So you are able to memorize pairs of cards but that has you memorizing 2,700 images.

Almost no one uses 2704 images in the modern 2-card systems. People will combine 2-block system with Major or Ben which means they move to the next loci after a certain color of card hits on the first position. This method allows the required images to be cut down to 1352. Also I think the death of PAO is an overly dramatic thread title, it’s been like 3 years since then and its not dead.

I have finally come to the conclusion that PAO is not for me as I am not training for any sort of memory sport. PA seems like a perfect middle ground. 00-99 should be enough and I believe I can add to it in the future?

I think PA is a great choice. You can always expand PA into PAO. I wouldn’t even expand it tbh, I don’t believe objects add value.

You mention trying out a PO. Is there a benefit to this over a PA? I find in the examples I’ve come across like Einstein writing on a blackboard very clear in my head. I know this is sort of like a PAO but I dont consider the blackboard an object. Its just extra fluff (for now) to bring the scene to life. As I will be able to introduce the blackboard in the future as an object if I expand to a 000-999.

PA is complete system which could be expanded into PAO but that’s not always the goal.
PO is not viable as a complete system in my opinion because the meat of what makes PAO good is action linking.
I’ve not seen anyone competing with PO and doing well either, but I’ve seen people who do well with PA.

One more thing I couldnt find in my searches: Should you stick to one sound per number? The Major method says S or Z for 0. If I choose S should I use S for every iteration of 0 going forward? Or is it okay to use S or Z interchangably. If so that would open up a lot more words to work with.

I would use S until you have a problem coming up with a word, then you can use Z. They sound fairly similar so you will often hear the Z word when trying to sound out an S but sometimes you might not and you will have to subvocalize the word again with the Z sound.

I thought the whole point is that P is Person(?). How would you combine Aurora with an action/object? Are we personifying the first element in PAO? If we used something like Rail, isnt that an object? Doesn’t that throw off the whole order of operations? I’ve seen multiple posts of people using very obscure words just because they fit the Major system.

Yeah it’s just Major system without PAO. Everything is treated as an object including people. The 2 digit system is very easy for the casual memorizer because the images can be made up on the spot, only the number-sound conversions need to be memorized. The 3 digit Major system is one of the most competitive but it needs A LOT of practice to be memorized. The alternative for 3 digits is Ben which uses vowels and that’s what I use. If I could go back in time and give myself advice I would say use PA though and save myself a ton of time.

12

You can if you want. It is easier to find words if you use all the phonetic options for each number. Remember its about sounds and similarity of sounds. Think of the mouth/lips/tongue placement and movement as you pronounce each sound. This is why the multiple phonetic options are what they are. The options for 6 (J, Ch, Sh, DG, Zh) all follow the same mouth stuff to say. If you stick to just one of those, you may find it tough to complete a PO / PA / PAO list that requires lots of that number to be used.

Its a LITTLE bit tougher to initially learn, but once the sound/mouth connection clicks it becomes very easy to interchange the sounds. Just like the letter C can be pronounced multiple ways depending on the context, these numbers can be as well. Think about reading in english. You know the rules well enough that you don’t see “Ceiling” and pronounce it “Keeling.” You know that in the context of that word, the C makes an S sound. Similar with learning and working with Major. After just a short time, I know that 07 is ZaC, and 08 is SoFia. The 0 makes both of those sounds, but its fluent now for me, so no issues. You can get there too with practice. Its totally up to you.