I find “Loci” more difficult to use than memory pegs themselves as anchors to attach things I want to remember by association to. To distinguish between “Loci” and memory pegs. I treat the two concepts as different things, in that “Loci” should be able to be GPS co-ordinated or pinned as a location on your Garmin or cell phone, whereas ‘memory pegs’ definitely not so. If I am imagining a route around my house or a trip to my local Supermarket and identify “Key items or places” along the way that system to me is using "Loci"as all the locations have fixed and determinable GPS co-ordinates fixed to those “things or/places”, assuming I don’t go and re-arrange my household furniture at home! On the other hand “memory pegs”, I classify as things that are arranged by convention of some other mnemonic system (eg. Major System eg. Tie, Noah, Ma, Rye etc.), or some other preconceived structure or order such as: number-shape system, number rhyming system, alphabet A-Z system, NATO alphabet system, Body Parts Pegs etc. The other systems I have alluded to as ‘memory pegs’ don’t have fixed GPS locations though, my 'imagined pegword of a “shoe” only exists in my mind’s eye and doesn’t reside at any fixed address or location as such. So with that as a backdrop, I am looking at creating a battery of ‘smaller’memory peg systems’ that I can use for card memorization using a PAO Dominic system where 18 peg words are needed to attach a deck of 52 cards to. 3 cards at each of 17 “pegs” and 1 card at the last “peg”. I have thought of pegs like the Zodiac system followed by the days of the week which yields a 19 item ‘pegword system’. I think it’s more advantageous to have a whole lot of smaller pegword systems than one gigantic 999 ‘pegword palace’?? I am looking for any other short examples of commonly known ‘pegword systems’ I can use as ‘memory palaces’ - Note: No less than 18 pegwords and preferably no more than 26 pegwords per system. I’m interested in generic universal pegword systems that would be ‘cultural free’ that anybody anywhere in the world with a finishing high school diploma would be able to understand. The “Periodic Table” would be another ‘pegword system’ that would work, if I only use the first 18 elements of it. Any suggestions out there??
In closing, I see “Memory Palaces” as the generic terms that encompasses all of the following systems: Loci, Roman Room, journey method + all pegword systems
Peg systems are more useful if you want to remember things in order and numbered. It’s like a numbered filing system. Link method is even easier to do and compliments the peg system. Memory palace and method of loci, both the same, is not necessarily gps oriented but is more like ingrained in your mind through past interactions with familiar ( to you ) locations which make it easier to remember and to attach images onto. Just make sure to really see the image on that loci complete with action, exaggeration, etc.
That makes perfect sense to me. The bit I have difficulty with in using a Loci method is that if I have an imaginary route in my mind (albeit one I have already traversed on several occasions), I begin to doubt myself as to the ‘landmarks’ I have chosen to use. So, for instance if I start my 'memory palace" or “Journey Method” at Cape Town’s V & A Waterfront’s “Ferris Wheel” as my first location and then start walking to a fixed location say 10 km away in neighbouring Seapoint, what things do I choose as significant on my journey? Is my 2nd point “Quay 4 Pub” and 3rd point the “Tourists Pirate Ship”? and what do I choose as my 4th point without confusing myself? What about the places I originally didn’t choose that are along the route? I think that’s the confusing part about the system of “Loci” for me. I would rather WALK in my mind’s eye in a 100 cell memory-grid, say: A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, A0, B1, B2 ,J6, J7, J8, J9 to J0, where each cell is represented by a ‘pegword marker’. In walking that memory grid route, I know that at J0 the 100th marker on my route that there is a JuiCe there (coded in Major System mnemonic as J0 which represents J10 the final cell in an A-J 10 x10 memory grid) that awaits me. I know that in remembering a sequence of cards that memory athletes (possibly without exception) use the ‘memory palace’ (to be read system of “Loci” technique, as the exact position of where a particular card falls for them is unimportant, so long as they know the card that comes before it and the card that comes after it, presumably everything is fine? (although let it be said, I’m no memory expert, so its just what I’ve seen taught on You-Tube by Ron White, Nelson Dellis and similar other Memory Champions?). Either I must find a way to make the system of “Loci” work for me or kick it into touch completely and just go with my “Pegword methods”. Obviously, I would imagine a benefit of “Loci” is that yo can walk as many routes as you need to in able to accomplish your goal. So remembering a sequence of 20 decks of cards (not shuffled into each other) would take 20 separate “Loci” of 18 steps in each Loci. The same could be accomplished with 20 separate ‘memory peg palaces’ too (as my preferred option), which is why I am seeking to find furthershorter (18 steps) “universal Peg Word Palaces” (Culturally Free) as requested in my original thread posted.
I think you should write down the landmarks you chose and recall only those so you won’t be confused. Number them by 5’s and make the list final don’t add things in between once you finalized it.
Another piece of advice is to use medium/large sized fixed objects in your memory palace opposed to small and moveable ones. If you look at a room, the question one must ask is what are the prominent items in this space? If one uses small objects there is a tendency to forget the order.
Secondly, make sure that the direction is not a zig-zag, but has a natural and intuitive direction to you. Some people tend to forget the order of loci because there is not an intuitive sense of direction. Imagine that you are giving a tour to someone visiting - and that movement tends to be natural and most fitting.
Thirdly, avoid similar or the same objects. If you are in a room and there are two couches, only use one couch. If there are two tables, only use one. If there is a wall, only use one wall. I know there is debate in regards to the subject of design but I think it ultimately depends on the type of information you are studying and how quickly you want to navigate.
In conclusion, I think one of the primary benefits of a memory palace opposed to the peg system is the capacity for detailed organization and categorization of information for retrieval. In a literal sense, one can be an architect of ideas. I recommend, The Book of Memory by Mary Carruthers. The way the medievals talked about memory is striking because they often viewed it more as a means for attaining virtue and the transformation of one’s soul to conform to truth. So, it is not just putting ideas in order but also a quest to have ideas to put “‘me” in order.
Then you will notice that each memory palace has a “feeling”. It is kind of hard to explain — but there comes a point where mental spaces have unique essences as persons. You will be able to hear their voice and sense their presence. Ideas are not detached in the soulessness of pegs but embodied in place.
Not sure if that answers your question. I think as the people mentioned above, palaces are very useful for sequential knowledge or for organizing thought.
Pegs are useful in certain contexts but not necessary in all. Every instrument in one’s memory toolbox has a fitting use. One would not use a saw to hang up a painting on a wall or a ruler to to chop wood.
I will see if I can get a copy of the book of memory as suggested by Mary Carruthers. Thank you for the additional pointers you have given. I have found memory palaces of my home preferable to memory palaces ‘out and about’ outside in the city and suburbs. This is probably soething to do with the closer proximity things in ones house have as opposed to places outside of one’s house. To you point of having a system and not zig-zagging, I have picked up that most memory fundis say that you should approach your memory palaces in a ‘clock-wise’ fashion and not traverse accross your own path. That does make sense to me. I thought as a system of ‘loci’ is nothing more than an organised plot of a journey one is familiar with that it may be an idea to select ‘loci’ at every corner on say one’s journey in a car to work. In otherwords forget about landmarks that are not situated on corners specifically. The use of Memory Palaces is definitely more of an “Art” than a science as far as I’m concerned and your point made that each of your memory palaces has a ‘feeling’ (difficult for you to explain) talks to this point. I am guessing like any skill, that the more one practices the better one becomes at it. Perhaps I’m at fault for not seeing the benefits of memory Palaces that you have alluded to. I don’t know, its a case of ‘work-in-progress’ for me I’m guessing. But the principles brought to the fore by answers received on this thread have shed some valuable light upon obvious things I had up to now not considered, so again thanks for your thoughts and input.
Paul I’m NOT trying to link a numbered position within a deck to a particular card or a particular card to a numbered position within the deck. That would be used for MEMDECK type work ala: Tamariz, Aronson, Redford or a host of other stacks. I want to just be able to recall cards like the “memory champions” do using the concept of memory palaces
Ah ok, we use a similar method for both - first creating a person for every card (a cast list) based on their initials (that way we have a double check) and then for memorising a shuffled deck we remember 4 cards at every junction in a journey style memory palace (although we call them movie locations) - this has had great results thus far for students memorising shuffled decks. You can of course use 13 pegs instead of 13 location junctions. It’s after pretty much the same thing - instead of 13 junctions in a memory palace for each deck, you use 13 pre-learnt pegs.
I am interested to know are you using your Letter Getter System for encoding cards or the Dominic or Major System. How do you handle Jacks, Queens and Kings. The numeric values are quite straight forward in that you could use the Cards Value and Cards Suit as the Initials of First Names and Surnames as I do when using the Dominic Sysytem. Dominic has cleverly covered those bases for all Card Suits of the Playing cards in the design of his code where: S = Spade, D = Diamond, C = Club and H = Heart. By substituting the “O” in Dominic’s system for the 10 card value that gives you Tens = O; Aces = A; Twos = B; Threes = C; Fours = D, Fives = E; Sixes = S; Sevens = G; Eights = H; Nines = N. So Club 9 would be CN or Chuck Norris (Person), Swinging (Action), Nunchakas (Object). Where I find Dominic system is breaking down a little is with the so-called court cards: Jacks, Queens and Kings. For argument sake a Club Jack would literally translate into a Club Eleven which in Dominic’s code would be a CAA (or Club Eleven). Another example, the Heart Queen (to be read Queen of Hearts) would be encoded under Dominic’s system as HAB (or Heart Twelve). No the challenge is to find someone to slot into one’s cast of characters with the initials HAB to represent the Queen of Hearts. How do you overcome this?
Hi Fred, we use the Rhyming Letter getters for number cards, the initials of the suits for the surname. Court cards are cast as characters rather than initials - So for example in my personal playing card cast list I use Stephen Hawking for the Six of Hearts and Donald Trump for the King of Diamonds - hope that give you the idea. Then for shuffled packs we used Person, Action, Object, Quote to give four playing cards at every junction.
I found the same issue with pegs vs loci, and began to favour pegs.
But then I read in Kathrynn Lynn’s memory craft she says that the loci need to be labelled. Given this, loci is far easier to quickly decode and move around in.
Peg systems are great, but loci is better. I tend to use peg systems for less important information
In closing, I see “Memory Palaces” as the generic terms that encompasses all of the following systems: Loci, Roman Room, journey method + all pegword systems.
Memory palace is a generic terms for Loci, Roman Room and the Journey method.
They are all a “Memory palace” technique.
Pegword is a more specific technique for the content you want to remeber into the Memory palace.
Having fun fumbling around with how Zettellkasten (ZKN) Niklas Luhrman practise - “that which stimulates writing” might best (if at all) associate with forms of Memory Palace (MP) ( I see MP’s as “garages of painted canvases canvases of parked imaginings, parked within loci”?)… Are they best left as simple stand alone mentation aids or is trying to associate them falling into ‘overthinking’ into needless complexities?
Appreciate advice - thanks. Have been trying ( as a non-techy ) to get my head around how or IF the Obsidian app IF coupled/ synced with Digitised ZKN data (per writings of David Kadavy) COULD populate forms of Memory Palace almost instantly - with no user intervention. Am i talking “tosh” or is what I’ve described even possible?
From what I have experienced in my imagination, “Loci” refer to spatial situations and “Pegs” would not necessarily be spatially organized. Which makes Loci in some ways a special kind of Peg, and what makes Pegs into Loci for me is: did I spatially imagine two pegs next to each other? If I imagine Peg1 next to Peg2 and Peg3 next to Peg2, then they become “Loci”. If I did not imagine spatial order, it is just a Peg which did not become used like a Loci
Hi. How they can attach 3 items to a peg? Creating a story or using systems like pao or something? I cant understand how they memorize cards or other things that way.
