[This thread was copied here from the old forum]
LadyBluebell 23 October, 2012 - 15:17
I completed the pMemory course about 20 months ago, but I have done nothing fancy memory-wise since. It seems to be presented everywhere as so natural & instant that I feel I am missing something of major importance.
For starters, I had so many flashcards for figurative codes of letters, numbers, & other information for the course. Plus, if I had been in school, it sounds like I would have needed a personal, made-up, specialized figurative code language for each course I was studying. Even though there was a pattern to the codes, number/letter wise, & some sort of system for the made up language (for whatever subject), it seems there is still some major rote learning involved. Even though I improved my linking & visualization skills, making flashcards & memorizing all of those codes is still a good bit of work.
Plus the palace, personal journey, loci, whatever you want to call them. Although I obviously used places familiar to me, I still needed to cement the places into memory. In order to have a fairly high number of images, I had to include some items I might not touch or think about on a daily basis. Like the fancy decorative rabbit in the kitchen, the small unobtrusive picture on the wall, etc. I also found some items not 100% intuitive as to simply clockwise, up-to-down, etc.
I know these uber-memory systems have merit. However, it seems like there is really a whole lot of extra work involved. Itâs really like learning a whole new language, but in a way much more because the specific order of everything is often so precise.
You can learn âlist these 25 itemsâ quickly & easily, but it seems to have an enormous learning curve for practical use. Hopefully, I am wrong & there is something easy & basic I am missing. I am hoping someone here can help. Thanks!
suncover 23 October, 2012 - 17:49
Welcome to the site, by the way 
I think you were expecting it to be too instantaneous and got discouraged because of that. Like anything else, it needs work. The benefit comes from once you have put in the work, you start to reap the rewards in the form of a very easy-to-use and powerful system. Sure, some things require some preparation, but once youâre done with the preparation, you will be able to use and reuse your memory palaces/journeys/methods over and over with much less effort subsequent times.
Compare it like this - rote memorisation, you have to know the topic, and repeat it over and over until it sticks, and hope you donât miss anything. You have the preparation and work in repeating it numerous times, and then no guarantee you will remember the info. With memory systems like these, you may do some prep of visualising your journeys/palaces or numbers, etc (all of which is rather relaxing), but once this is done, the only things you have to do are:
a) Understand it if you are studying something
b) Figure out the image you want to store
You donât have to spend hours repeating the image to yourself - once is often enough, and then it stays there for a very long time too. Take this real world example - I attend Church each week, and used to often forget what was said in the sermons shortly after. This was even with understanding the content - I just didnât have it stuck in my head. Even repeating the points over and over to myself, if I stopped repeating them, within 10 minutes they would have easily disappeared from my brain. Then, I started using a Memory Palace for this. I was able to remember the whole sermon for 2 to 3 weeks at a time, without any review after initially committing it to memory, which I was able to do all whilst listening to the sermon. This, even with very little practice. So, you see, the same principle can be extended into other areas. Spend 5 extra minutes figuring out how to encode your Biology homework rather than 30 extra minutes trying to remember it precisely by repeating over and over.
I hope this helps to make sense? The more you practice trying to encode stuff as well, the easier and quicker it comes to you
LadyBluebell 24 October, 2012 - 10:06
Thank you very much for your helpful reply & your warm welcome. I really appreciate it.
Of course, we all would love if this type of system was instantaneous, but Iâm not really sure if that was my main problem. Before starting the pMemory course, I either read, or asked & was told each lesson was 1-2 hours. That sounded reasonable & at first it seemed to be the case. However, there were a lot of figurative codes to learn, so that took some extra time. I ended up with a huge ANKI collection, but I felt it was worth the effort since I was learning a system that would serve me for life, especially if I ever went back to school. (Iâm also not sure if ANKI flashcards are good for a memory expert in training, but I used them.)
Then began the loci / Cicero collections. Thatâs where I started to become totally confused. I honestly have never really understood this system completely, & Iâm sure thatâs a lot of my problem. I just started to realize I wasnât tying all of this together, seeing how I could feasibly go about using this.
The hours I was spending were really adding up. I thought each lesson would be 1-2 hours, & I was spending a lot more time than this. I questioned why I was doing this, plus I wondered how the course was set up for people to do all of these exercises with the learning of figurative codes & memorizing journeys so quickly. I thought I was doing something wrong. I thought I must be a lot less talented than most. (Way after I gave up, I read that an instructor hinted to a student that only 1-2% complete the course, so maybe not.)
When the Loci / Cicero / Journey system is briefly described historically, I totally get it. It makes perfect sense when giving a speech, remembering a list, etc. But for memorizing facts, not always so much.
For starters, Iâm still not 100% clear on the specifics of my journeys, paths, or whatnot. Courses invariably give an example of a shower, dishwasher, sink, or something of the like. All of these have somewhat complex parts that one interacts with. But do you add items like pictures, figurines, or mirrors to your landmarks, or is it just things like couches, tables, & major appliances? Does each item need to have the same number of components?
I had the plan of creating about 25 per day. Writing them down for later, mentally walking through them several times. Some of them are not 100% obvious, even places like my home. Order, things I may forget about (I got about 150 items including figurines & all, but Iâm not sure if thatâs right), etc.
If Iâm remembering right, one generally creates a chain of items off each Cicero item part. Like connecting to the washing machine basket is apple, blueberry, cantaloupe, date, eggplant & connecting to the DVD disc tray is cat, mouse, cheese, ham, & pig. Not sure if the food & animals in this case would be divided into parts - I never got this far.
But even though there is obviously a pattern to these images, they would still need to be sealed into memory. Which item, which part, to which chain?
Not only that, but how many? I am guessing that memory competitors have a few thousand set aside for just competitions & short-term demonstrations, which can be reused. But the more long-term (like what a student would use), canât be reused for a long while, if ever. (Not sure.) So thatâs a lot of initial set-up.
Another thing about this systemâŚI wrote earlier that I understand if for oration but not totally for school facts. I will give a hypothetical example.
Suppose Minnie the Memory Master & her non-memory-trained friend Jane decide to take a Spanish class together. Neither of them has any background in the Spanish language. They decide to complete the LinkWord Spanish course as a supplement to their class. Although Minnie would create links like the ones in this course anyhow, she completes it nonetheless for the inspiration & ready-made word lists.
An obvious example: the Spanish word for cow is âvaca.â Connect a cow & a vacuum somehow, a cow vacuumingâŚ
Now Minnie would have an obvious room for her Spanish information - her Spanish classroom. Jane obviously doesnât, for she just learns by repetition, rote memorization, hoping itâll stay in there. (Sounds like my college experience.)
But does Minnie need to connect this cow vacuuming mental scene to one of her Spanish classroom loci images? Or loci to cow - cow with an apron vacuuming? This is a major question of mine.
There is already a link in this case, so is loci necessary? Would Minnieâs method for going through the LinkWord course be fundamentally different from Janeâs? I would assume Minnie would be better at creating the mental images in her mind than Jane, but other than that, might it be the same?
I realize this has gotten quite long, but I feel I have never really understood the background of this. Although my pMemory experience was pleasant enough, I think there might be something to this paraphrased statement I read somewhere: âpMemory has a way of making the easy difficult.â
I feel there is a Eureka! moment about this I have never had. I appreciate your help.
metivier 24 October, 2012 - 12:53
I appreciate all that you are saying because memory techniques do sometimes seem like an inordinate amount of work.
I have written about how for me, mnemonics are like a bike. Everyone can ride one after theyâve learned the mechanics, but each individual bike requires some adjusting. Raise the seat, change the angle of the handlebars - you may even have to oil the change or add a bell.
These things take time and loving care. Then there is riding the bike, which takes wind and energy. But just as you would go to the gym to work out your body, here you are engaging in mental exercise, which also has physiological benefits in terms of sending more oxygen rich blood to the brain.
In other words, there is more to mnemonics than just having a better memory. Itâs about having a better brain for its own sake, and understanding the expanses of your mind at a higher level in order to achieve deliberate outcomes that youâve set for yourself.
I hope youâll continue telling us about your journey into memory here.
mrdurdenx 24 October, 2012 - 19:15
It is âtime-consumingâ to review loci and cement informantion permanently.
But if one completes, one can retrieve whatever one wants without any physical aid.
Some people seem to think that Mnemotechnique is a âmagic pillâ. Those who think so have no understanding on human brain.
Jimbo1 24 October, 2012 - 23:54
Hi
I donât think the problem is you - I think the problem is the Pmemory system that you are using. Unburden yourself from it and use a much simpler system.
Mukkinese 25 October, 2012 - 07:14
A problem with these courses is that they can overwhelm a beginner with information and you feel that you need to master it all to get the benefit. The truth is you can improve your memory considerably with some very basic methods.
The link system is probably the first we learn, no pegs to memorize, no loci, just linking one image to another. This alone can be very useful. With the simple linking of images we can learn more than âshopping listsâ. Think of any list, even a complex one, like the periodic table of elements, for instance, just break it down into groups, then attach the group images to an image of the table as a list, then attach a list of elements in each group to the symbol for the group.
Once you set up basic lists of knowledge it then becomes easier to expand on them, like a mentally, visualized Mind Map.
Pegs are great for organizing new information and a numbers system will become necessary at some point, but start easy and expand on simple systems first. You will be amazed at how easy it becomes with use.
BuddingProspects 26 October, 2012 - 09:39
Yes, the problem is that youâre using the wrong system. Pmemory is way too involved, too convoluted.
Do yourself a favor and start looking at books by Dominic OâBrien, Harry Lorayne, etc. All, or most, of your questions will be answered in full. Stay away from books that have graphs and âstudiesâ of memory. Look for the books that have nothing but technique (OâBrien, Lorayne, for example).
Keep it simple
I have the official PDF copy of the Pmemory system and itâs bunk. Lots of pseudo-scientific gobbledegook.
âWithout knowledge of how information becomes âfixedâ, remains brain the brain [sic], it is impossible to create an efficient memorization system. A description of memory mechanisms is provided in the GMS. Two mechanisms of connection fixation by the brain are singled out, namely âelectric memoryâ and âreflex memory.ââ
âAn understanding of the mechanics of written and oral information is described and a simple scheme of reproductive imaging provided.â
âIn addition, the GMS system introduces the concept of âpreciseâ or âsignâ information, which is not yet distinguished in academic psychology.â
So much of this crapola throughout the Pmemory Manual. I havenât the foggiest idea of exactly âhowâ the brain really remembers (in scientific terms, that is), but that didnât stop me from memorizing everything I wanted to memorize.
Hype 27 October, 2012 - 05:51
My hatred for Pmemory is well-known. It is an awful system designed to purposefully make things more difficult for you than they should be, so that when you finally do get it, it makes it feel like itâs worth the hundreds of dollars you spent for it. As opposed to the $5 a book would cost, or even for free from the internet.
Kinma 27 October, 2012 - 11:22
It is also well-known that I agree with Hype.
My advice is to start over. Pmemory makes the easy difficult. Should be the other way aound.
I have given a lot of examples on this forum on how I approach mnemonics.
With a little bit of practice this stuff is supposed to be easy and I give a lot of examples on how easy this is.
So your feeling that this stuff should be easier is right.
Watch this video and do the exercise with Nelson. You will see how easy this is!
Let me know, please.
Mystery 28 October, 2012 - 08:50
I think it depends on what techniques you want to use and how you use them. Some really are instant, like simple associations or putting a few things around your house, some become instant after a bit of preparation â like number peg lists â and some take constant preparation/updating â like building new lociâ.
LadyBluebell 29 October, 2012 - 16:45
Thank you all for your insight. I really appreciate all of your help.
I am glad to know pMemory is more confusing than it should be. Until recently, I really thought I had some sort of memory defect, for not only did I struggle with memorizing for school but I also had major difficulty with a super easy, no high-intelligence required memory course!
I am now taking your advice & am reading some memory books that are MUCH cheaper than pMemory. I got everything on memory development available from the library & ordered some other cheap âclassicsâ from Thrift Books. I could probably get everything I actually need from only one of these, but I generally like to read several books on the same topic to give me a broader knowledge base. Plus, I donât have the huge rush I might if I were in school.
I realize that I failed to do this before originally purchasing & going through pMemory. I was convinced that with the 60 or so lessons it would be much more thorough & that it was a totally different system than the others, not a largely complicated repackaging of enormously less expensive material.
Plus, it really sounds like a PAO number system would be much more quickly usable than the pMemory system I learned (& have forgotten).
I am now reading Kenneth Higbeeâs âYour Memory: How It Works & How to Improve Itâ for it was the only was available for pick up at the library. Although I am only in Chapter 4, he has already answered several questions pMemory never did.
One thing I do disagree with though is what strikes me as the idea (presented in this book) that only the instant-gratification seeking, highly gullible, & lazy crowd could possibly fall for the greatly exaggerated promises made by various courses. I think sometimes a history of difficulty with an endeavor - memorizing for school with an enormous amount of work & time involved, however poorly done, can make you think there is a lower level basic problem that once identified will make the rest of it fall into place.
Here is a story that resonated with me, although I never had this exact problem. I apologize in advance if this is a bit inaccurate. In Temple Grandinâs âThinking in Pictures,â she writes about it taking her a while to realize words existed, words had meaning, the English language existed, so to speak. Before this, she thought the volume, tone, inflection, etc. was the only language. (Actually, I remember when I somehow realized that the music on the radio had words - I knew kiddie songs without background accompaniment had words, bu I thought the popular music on the radio was nonsense vocal syllables, maybe a form of scat singing, so maybe thatâs why it hit me.) Although this didnât fix everything for her overnight, it would have been a huge step forward, a major Eureka! moment. I think sometimes some of us expect a greater revelation than might actually exist, feeling there is something basic, simple, & profound that we can âfixâ.
I really appreciate all of your help, & I will see where my reading takes me. Best wishes to you all! I will keep you posted.
Metivier 29 October, 2012 - 17:18
LadyBluebell wrote:
One thing I do disagree with though is what strikes me as the idea (presented in this book) that only the instant-gratification seeking, highly gullible, & lazy crowd could possibly fall for the greatly exaggerated promises made by various courses. I think sometimes a history of difficulty with an endeavor - memorizing for school with an enormous amount of work & time involved, however poorly done, can make you think there is a lower level basic problem that once identified will make the rest of it fall into place.
You are definitely right to question this point, LadyBluebell. I donât know the product you bought, but Iâd be willing to bet that it had a long sales letter filled with language patterns designed to place prospective buyers into a pseudo-hypnotic state. These sales letters work especially well on people who are pre-motivated to buy particular products because they are seeking a particular benefit. Really great copywriting is designed to alternately stimulate the right and left sides of the brain so that people get both the fantasy/fantastic outcome elements and the practical nuts and bolts information they need in order to decide to purchase.
Anyhow, I know a bit about this because I studied copywriting so I could market my own tiny memory skills product. It is an ethical debate because all advertising is persuasive by nature. But I believe that there are good products and bad products and the integrity lies in how well the product fulfills the promises of the salesmanship.
Looking forward to hearing more about your adventures in memorization.
suncover 29 October, 2012 - 17:32
I think some good discoveries have come through this discussion for you so far, LadyBluebell, but just to summarise my feelings on it all:
- The course you took was way too complicated, and I believe that contributed to your viewpoint of this being too hard (as well as causing you to become too concerned and think more deeply than you need to regarding this topic)
- All memory work is based on images, and linking concepts (to different and varying degrees and implementations, but the same underlying concept)
- You donât always need Loci, or a journey. There are only specific times Iâd use this. To take it to your Spanish example, there would be no need for Loci in this instance, only the linking/image part of it. You would be doing extra work if you were putting this in a Loci, and for no reason. You can easily have the image of your vacuuming cow, and know the word is âVacaâ (Iâm 90% sure thatâs the word, and thatâs just from reading your image once :P). All youâd need to do is, if you were thinking âwhat is the Spanish for cow?â, picture the cow, and the image of said Vacuum will pop into your head Does that make sense?
I would answer your other points, but I think itâs been made fairly clear overall that there are much simpler and more effective ways to do this, and although it still takes work, the benefit does pay off many times over. Hope the books are going well?