How to memorize the index of a 300 words' list?

yannickfrance · January 3, 2021, 5:39am

Hi,

First, wishing you all a Happy New Year

I am currently learning the definition of about 300 words / concepts. I already learned those definitions, initially by rote memorization, then by using ANKI cards. If you ask me any of the items, I will be able to explain them quite well. But if I take a blank sheet of paper and try to list all the concepts… well, I’m always missing some !

So I thought using a Memory Palace would be the perfect solution to solve this issue of “indexing”. Yet I ran into a few issues by doing so, hence would like to get your ideas.

Context :

around 300 words
can be ordered alphabetically into 22 letters (missing the Q, W, X, Z)
there are between 5 and 35 definitions per letter
5 letters have more than 20 definitions
this is for long term retention
this is a fixed list which will not extend

Here’s where I am now in term of solutions :

Option 1 : using the first floor (4 rooms) of my house as a MP

pro : super fast, I can probably find the 300 loci in 1 hour. I also keep all the information of this topic in 1 single place (my house).
con : because I would be grouping several letters together (eg : the letters ABCDE in the room #1), it’s not super easy to find the items starting by the letter D.

Option 2 : using 1 MP per letter ( A=> Apotheke, B => Bibliotheca, C => Camping, etc.)

pro : the issue above is solved
con : I am literally spreading the information all over the place ! I mean, I will end up with the information about this topic in very different places, so I am wondering if that can become an issue for the recall if/when I would be adding other subjects. Let’s say tomorrow I want to add a completely different topic like Chemistry, which would also have concepts ordered alphabetically. If I use the same option of 1 MP per letter, it means I have to find another Apotheke, Bibliotheca, Camping… Nothing impossible here I guess, but then this 2nd topic would again be spread in various places, So looking at it longer term, with more topics, I fear it could become all messy, no ?

Reading this forum, I identified potential other solutions like :

having a MP of my MP (=> Gavino’s MMP , if I understood it correctly)
exploring “virtual/imaginary” MP (I’ve never done this so far, I only use “real places” I have visited…)

I’m calling out to the community for advice from more experienced users :

would you have any tips to improve the 2 options above ?
would you have any other options solving those issues ?

Anyway, I’m not in a rush, so curious to see how others would tackle it. But I also want to avoid the “analysis paralysis” syndrome

Tx a lot in advance !

aicreator · January 3, 2021, 8:07am

I have about 18 months of experience using memory palaces

I think that if you will chunk the distance between which you will place your objects then it will improve your memory and I do not know whether my thought is correct or not but according to me chunking always improves memory,

And if I remember correctly if you will use two memory techniques with each other you can get better results than by using just one memory technique if the combined memory techniqueis simple,

Sometimes even memory techniques which did not work for a person at first work when they are used with another memory technique,

The Keyword Method did not work for me untill I started using it with Memory Palaces and for some people for whom Memory Palaces do not work experimenting with combinations of memory techniques(in usage) can make Memory Palaces work for them ,

And I have a strong assumption that chunking is a memory technique used by top memory champions WMC to increase the amount of information which they can memorize,

And,

Have a Great Day.

aicreator · January 3, 2021, 8:20am

Edit- Added the words “on memory”.
If an incorrect emoji may be seen by you then it is due to the browser displaying them incorrectly, If you want then you can verify this by visiting this page from a few different devices from the same account,

And,

I find it awkward that when a person has a good memory when using memory techniques then that person can automatically give good information on memory, And when I give information about Memory Techniques I do not know what happens but the information automatically comes to me in the form of thoughts and maybe some
people have a terrible natural memory but they can switch it on,For ex-Memory champions,

And,

Cheers.

Josh · January 3, 2021, 8:37am

A post was split to a new topic: The forum’s emoji editor

aicreator · January 3, 2021, 8:45am

The emoji’s of the forum are better than that of my keyboard,

And,

Thank You.

Finwing · January 3, 2021, 10:38am

Hi, that’s an interesting question.

300 words in 4 rooms means around 75 words in each room, correct? That are a lot of things. I’m wondering how you are doing that. Do you place smaller versions of the word objects on mini-locations? This can indeed work.

One solution of the con problem with this option could be to use distinct areas for the letters. Let’s say letter A has seven entries. Then you could use seven mini-locations within a bookshelf. Letter B needs fourteen entries. You can use the couch and maybe the TV too in order to get enough locations. C is at the desk, and so on.

Personally I would prefer this option. When you use memory palaces for long term memorization, they will become very familiar over time, including the objects you stored at the locations. When you hear a word or a letter, you will automatically know where to look for it.

The trick is to use spaced repetition for the memory palaces too.

For example a card could say ’ Chemistry’. This means you travel through all chemistry palaces in alphabetical order. Another card could just say ‘Chemistry H’. Then you traverse the palace that contains the chemistry concepts starting with H, recalling all objects that are placed there along with their meaning.

By the way, memory palaces don’t have to start with the same letter as their concept words, like A → Apotheke. If you need to be able to jump to a letter immediately, you could for example create an alphabet list and place the letter objects on the first locations of the palaces.
An alphabetical list consisting of animals could start with ant and bear. Then you would place an ant on the first location of the A palace, before going on with the concepts starting with a. The B palace would start with a bear.

When using the method with the alphabet list, you could also create one continuous journey for all the letters. Let’s say you use the four rooms in your house for the letters A to D. Then E could be in the garden, F in a shop on the other side of the street, G at the park to the right of the shop, and so on.

That are just some ideas of course. You should pick what works best for you

yannickfrance · January 4, 2021, 11:59am

Hi, Tx for your answers.

Yes indeed, I’m actually using relatively detailed stations in my MP. For instance it would not be just “1 bed” but rather “10 items” related to that bed (a cushion, a blanket, a bedside lamp, a nightstand, 2 dolls, etc.). Same for the desk, wardrobe, window, bookshelf, etc.
I have 2 kids, so their rooms are actually full of toys which make it quite easy to have lots a of stations. In comparison, I have much less in my own parent room

Yes indeed, that is exactly what I planned !
And since I am not really interested by the alphabetical order, I can actually reshuffle the letters to match the number of available loci per “area” in each room and facilitate the recall. For instance my kid’s bed has a Mario (Nintendo) blanket and the letter M has 10 entries, so I will probably use the “bed” area to store the M words.

Sure, agree. It was more a way of organizing for the long term.

Smart, I actually did not think about that before, nice tip !

Tx again !

tarnation · January 4, 2021, 8:35pm

Hi Yannick,

If I understand your needs correctly, I would simply use option 1 to store the list sequentially in alphabetical order.

But then I would focus my efforts on making up games to practice quick retrieval.

For example, I might write a small script that builds a list using two letters from each word—say the first and second letter, or perhaps the first and last—then randomizes the list.

The game, or exercise, might be to have the script randomly present two letters (e.g.; “Rn”, “Pe” or “Gc”) and my task would be retrieve matching words from the memory palace. (E.g.: “Rubicon”, “Recreation” or “Porpoise” or “Gastric”, “Garlic”, “Gaelic”, assuming those were words in your list)

Developing speed would be a main goal.

Of course, this example assumes you can write a script. If not, no worries, bits of paper in a hat with letters written on them would also do fine.

The important thing is not any specific game. With some imagination, you can make up games that suit your own needs.

The deeper point is that retrieval practice is probably more important than your storage method.

If yoy take this approach, gamifying for randomness and speed of retrieval will probably be very helpful to aid your long term retention.

Regards,

Darn

yannickfrance · January 5, 2021, 9:33am

Hi Darn,

I’m totally with you on this one ! The act of recall, forcing yourself to find back the information, including “failing” at recalling correctly, is definitely more important than the mere “repetition” itself. I am planning to use a SRS (Anki) for this list anyway, as a support to memorizing my MP. I mean, the SRS will not be on the 300 definitions, but on the “index” itself.

It’s a good strategy, which I’m actually not using a lot… Apart from SRS, but not sure if doing Flashcards in Anki is the best gamification experience
@tarnation : do you use some specific tools / apps / websites for making the retrieval more fun ?

Tx !
Yannick

tarnation · January 5, 2021, 4:05pm

No. Sometimes, though, I invent simple games or challenges for myself using info from randomly selected sources like license plates–or even ‘found’ sentences.

As an example, I made myself a game to practice the periodic table of the elements, which I have previously memorized in numerical order (that is, in order of the element number: 1=Hydrogen, 2=Helium, 3=Lithium, etc). I know it pretty well, but not quickly, and definitely not alphabetically.

To play my game, I used the string of words from
my first paragraph above (i.e.: No. Sometimes, though, I invent simple…") to select out some random letter pairs. To do this, I just took two letters at a time (thus: N-o, S-o, M-e, T-i, etc) and used them to mentally traverse the table searching for elements of the periodic table that start with the first letter of the pair, but also contain the second letter.

So, for the ‘N-o’ letter pair, I came up with Nitrogen, Neon, Niobium, Neodymium, Nobelium, and Nihonium, while noticing that Nickel and Neptune do start with N, but do not contain the letter ‘o’.

I did the same for the next sequences I mentioned above (S-o, M-e and T-i). When I did the N-o pair, it took me a long time–probably more than an hour to do. By the time I got to T-i, I was able to go through the list in about 10.5 minutes. I think after a nap I would probably go much faster.

The exercise I did may be the wrong difficulty level for another person, but it’s just a matter of switching up rules to make things simpler or harder, according to what makes sense at the time.

Bottom line, a lot of games can be easily made up just using random information taken from materials in the world surrounding us. By using elements of randomness, flexible rules, and a time challenge, we can quickly put together many kinds of games that are great for helping us lock in knowledge in a way that is ultimately very efficient.

yannickfrance · January 6, 2021, 8:54am

Nice, I’ll give it a try !
Tx for taking the time to explain

Jakhy · January 6, 2021, 7:31pm

At the moment I’m memorizing onyomi readings of 2199 Japanese Kanji. There are about 320 unique readings (but this method focuses only on 80 readings). Some of them are used by over 80 different Kanjis. Also one Kanji can have several readings.

I grouped Kanjis by their readings, divided into sets of 10 (or less for last set in readings group) and made a short story for each set (10 Kanjis). Then for each story I chose one item or person or something reminding me of that story.

This way for each reading I have up to 9 items, each reminding of story with 10 kanji. Those items are then placed in individual memory palace along with something telling me how many Kanjis should be in palace and something reminding me about reading itself.

At this point I would have 80 different palaces. Some larger, some smaller obviously. You have to keep track of that as well. So I have one “Master memory palace” with indexes to each “reading memory palace”.

It may sound complicated, but it definitely works well for me, so you may give it a shot. The overall idea is following: choose unique item for each definition you have. Group them in 10 or whatever amount you like and make a story. For each story choose item and place in memory palace.

yannickfrance · January 7, 2021, 10:32am

Hi @Jakhy,

Thank you so much for your reply, this is so helpful.
Your method is just brilliant ! I can definitely see how to apply it to my situation, which is very similar to what you describe… only much easier with 10 times less items to remember

Excellent, we share the very same objective !!!
(not related to this topic, this one is actually about project / program management initially…).
I actually started last year picking up again Japanese - 20 years after a first attempt at the university !

I think I got it, but I’ll try to take an example to check if I understood you correctly. So let’s tackle the ON reading “FU/ふ”. There are 31 kanjis with this onyomi reading based on Heisig’s book RTK (volumes 1 and 3) :

That converts into 4 sets of 10 kanjis in your system.
You have 1 story linking the first 10 kanjis together, and for this story you choose 1 item.
Then you repeat this process for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th set.
So for the reading “FU/ふ” you end up with 4 items/persons to help recall the 4 stories which involve the 31 kanjis.

Then you create a MP dedicated to the reading “FU/ふ”, with 6 loci :

those 4 items / persons
something reminding the number of kanjis with this pronunciation (here 31, so maybe, if using the Major System, some mud or a mat or a friend called “Matthew”, etc. )
something reminding the pronunciation “FU/ふ”

Finally, on top of that, you create your “Master” MP that somehow references your 80 unique MP.

My questions / remarks :

did I get it right ?
each of your 80 MP has a limited number of loci then, between 3 (2+1) and 11(2+9), correct ?
what are your 80 MP, can you give practical examples for some ON readings ? I am new to MP, and still a lot to learn about them… from my unexperimented perspective, it seems very challenging to find 80 different MP, without confusing them. Do you have some organization / logic for them (a bit like what I proposed in my option #2 with for instance using alphabet pegs to help “structure/order” better) ?
does your Master MP have 80 loci, 1 per reading ? What do you put in each locus : the item that recalls the “FU/ふ” pronunciation, or something else that points to the “FU/ふ” MP ? can you give 1 example maybe ?

I know people who learned +2000 kanjis, but this is the next level !
I mean, you are not only learning the kanjis, you are actually learning the kanjis AND on top of them the list of those kanjis AND their breakdown per ON reading… which is just amazing

Can I ask you why you are doing this ?
If I compare with my case, knowing “all the list of items” is interesting because then I can give a more complete view of this topic if need be during a test, a conference or a conversation, etc.
But in your case, for the Japanese language acquisition, what are the benefits / your motivation for aiming at the “completeness of the index”, if I may say ? Does it somehow help you to remember / recall better the kanjis & their pronunciation & meaning ? (which I assume is the ultimate goal).
For my Japanese, I just never thought about learning the index of kanjis, probably also because it seemed impossible to do so for +2000 items… but I have to admit that with your method, suddenly the task seems feasible. So again, well done .

Maybe you know this already, but just in case I’m sharing. It’s related to creating stories for a set of kanjis, based on their onyomi reading, and using movie scenes as MP :

Thanks again for your very valuable input !

Yannick