Any tips during recall?

Hi all,

Do you have any tips for helping in recalling memorized data? For example a deck of cards?

I use PAO and sometimes when I push for speed and then try to recall I have blank loci which leads me to being unable to decode back into the cards as my imagery is not there.

I use Lance’s (@lociinthesky) advice on having the locus as the first object in the chain of events - in this case the PAO scene. The locus cues me to the person, who’s doing an action with an object.

For example:

4 of spades / 3 of diamonds / King of Clubs

In my system translates into: Rambo / PUTTING ON SUNGLASSES / on a SKATEBOARD

If my locus for example is wooden gates I imagine huge gunshot holes on the actual gates which reminds me of Rambo but when I try to go fast I lose the action and the object. So following Lance’s advice, the locus cues me perfectly to the person but I miss the other two elements when I’m trying to push for speed..

Following Lance’s logic, theoretically if the locus cues me to the person, the person should cue me to the action and the latter should also resurrect the object but in my case when I’m trying to go fast I’m losing the PAO-chain and usually only the locus reminds of the person but I blank out on what was the action and the object.

Any tips or findings you found for yourself while practicing that worked best for you to make the whole scene sticky and not just the first element of the scene?

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i’d just imagine the scene more holistically. Rambo-Sunglasses-Skateboard. the action isn’t putting on glasses, the action is being on a skateboard! Rambo doing a kickflip over the gates while the sunglasses fly off his head and shatter into pieces. you’d have to remember during recall that sunglasses is second and skateboard third, which could be anywhere from trivial to slightly annoying depending on your system. but when i do stuff like this during memorization it always clears itself up pretty easily. i don’t know much about Lance’s system so if this is an unacceptable change, you can still “start with” the gates, they burst open and Rambo cruises out of them and past you on a skateboard, putting on sunglasses like the coolest guy ever. just make every part of the scene matter.

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Thank you for your input.

For reference here is Lance’s insight: A tip for using The Method of Loci

What you said is pretty much his method but the holistic part is quite interesting. Never thought about that.

I always thought that the image should be strictly as it is, like Rambo literally taking a pair of sunglasses and putting them on a skateboard and during recall I will be hoping to see how silly Rambo is putting sunglasses on the skateboard itself, but your suggestion makes sense.

How did you do with this approach when pushing for speed? A lot of elite athletes are saying that for sub 30 seconds one doesn’t have the “time to visualize”. I’m wondering how this approach would be used by elite guys when they grab that scene for a fraction of a second, link it to the locus and move on with the next. Curious on the thought process…

@goldfish your tip completely changed my game dude! I just shaved more than 40 seconds off my time!

Now I’m at 02:40 per deck but now I have grounds to go better and faster.

I had a sequence in the deck: 2 of diamonds / 2 of clubs / 3 of clubs which in my PAO is: Nikola Tesla / Playing soccer / punchbag.

Before I would have memorized it as Nikola Tesla playing soccer while his soccer ball would encounter a punchbag. I realized that was completely wrong.

All I visualized, thanks to your advice, was how the chair (my locus) was tearing apart, Nikola Tesla emerged from there while kicking a soccer ball that morphed into a huge punchbag. Kind of like a GIF.

Before I was juggling the P-A-O attributes and trying to stitch them together in some way, now I just see a quick GIF-like scene of the PAO combination and my brain treats it as “one” thing instead of 3 things that need to be connected together.

WOW, thank you! :folded_hands:

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glad to be of help! sometimes you just need to reframe the task a little bit and figure out the best way to approach it. i’m sure i’ve got a million more of those to discover in my own journey :slight_smile:

Interestingly, now that i’m under 1:30 or so for a full deck and compare it to when i was closer to 10 minutes, it doesn’t feel like the images are any less rich or detailed or memorable. i definitely thought that spending 2-3 seconds on an image would lead to it not being as good as when i was starting and needed to use 30 seconds per locus, but there doesn’t feel like a drop off in quality. I’m still using triple the time you mentioned, but i assume it’s consistent-ish as speed builds. i guess i’ll see!

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Interesting!

Do you think that I should treat each PAO scene as one singular thing? Instead of me asking “How should the locus remind me of Rambo (then subsequently seeing him skateboarding and the sunglasses falling of him)” should I ask “How should this locus remind me of Rambo - sunglasses - skateboarding?”

For example hearing the skateboard behind the gates then the PAO scene emerges or seeing the whole scene of Rambo kicking the gates open while skateboarding and sunglasses falling of him as one?

I have serious hate for PAO, on principles. I used it for just 10 weeks, long enough to make it through my first championship and could not wait to set it ablaze and begin to rebuild. Actually, I stayed up all night the night before the USAMC starting to fill out hundreds of my 1000 digit objects because I was too excited to be freed of the shortcomings. That was 2013. Some people can use PAO well, but it is very difficult to do.

And your experience here looks like it might have a lot to do with the aspects of PAO which I assumed I’d never be able to overcome all that effectively.

Good work purposefully using loci as successful cues. It soubds like you’re pretty good at it. But why? Let me get the story straight.

Locus cues Rambo. This is good. It will have to be good. To draw the next action out of a deck at random is to commit to encoding infoemation that is at odds with the very obvious essential characteristics of Rambo’s identity. One part of a concept is how it appears, but the majority of its identity is the state of a vibey web of that freezes the relationships between it and its surrounding factors in a certain shape that would differ for anyone else. That is why PAO is so challenging. It is hard to visualize clearly at high speeds, and that would be fine if the intimation of A indicated P, and/or indicated O. If you don’t have that, then all you have to work with is what you’ve seen. Maybe an example would help. I haven’t seen Rambo, but I’m thinking shirtless, sweaty, gunning, I’m wondering, if he’s putting on sunglasses now, then how has he even managed to carry them until now. IIRC, he has two straps of ammunition crossing his torso in an “X”. I reckon that’s where the glasses were hanging from. Rambo has a way of carrying small objecta out of necessity which does not apply to anyone else. If you visualized him removing the sunglasses from the ammo belt by his collar, you might have remembered them better aftwr remembering Rambo. But if you remembered the glasses, and this remival, then you would certainly remember Rambo - Even if you never saw him. That is the key. And now you’ve identified a tendency that will pop up in certain situations now and again. Take that knowledge, and…

hang it on your belt for quick access when needed.

The “A” is reflexive. And then the “O” is…a retroactive modifier of P, of some kind, or something like that. Hm.

Above, I described a relationship between P and A,which, in the off chance it would pop up, makes up for a SIGNIFICANT amount of visual fidelity, which could be traded out for speed, where little memorability would be lost. The AO you described seems fairly opposite to this focus-on-interrelationship. I’m not even sure I comprehend how these elements map on to the “Action” and “Object” roles. What would make sense to me would be Rambo taking out the sunglasses from his ammo and placing them on the skateboard. Not idly, as if he just neeeds to free his hands, but as if he is “Dressing” the skateboard. The skateboard is “wearing” sunglasses. This way of handling the A seems pretty well generalizeable, and the relationships link in All directions. The act of “dressing” limits the possible Actions this might have been. From the point of view of someone who only visually locked in the skateboard, the state of “wearing” limits its possible immediate predecessors by the same token. That Rambo had to reach down, instead of up – for whatever reason – is limiting as well. Every P, and A, and O in your system is rife with characteristics which are either entirely unique, or which place it within a limited set of items that are also in that category. “Things that roll.” The more frequently and precisely you exploit these characteristics in your tableau, the more imposssible it becomes that any OTHER object might have been in its place. So you know what ot was. Even if you didn’t see it well. License to move quickly.

But thinking in this way is NOT quick. Probably, you should slow down a L O T, visualizing de k after deck (don’t bother with recall - memorization has nothing to do with this) and feel what it is like for every element in your tableau to be indicated in such a way that even if it were absent, the negative space of relationships would retain its shape, in a manner of speaking.

Building the skill of constructing tableaus with this characteristic-relationship mindset, is real, and it’s important. But that isn’t all.

Since you only have to deal with 156 elements, you will building an actionable repertoire that applies to each of your elements specifically. Outsource significant cognitive work to your former self, so that your present self can reach out and grab whatever you need in the moment off of the shelf where you readied it beforehand.

Hope this helps.

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Great explanation. I didn’t know how it works. I don’t know how to use these techniques. I use to study only and not numbers. But I’ve read the most quick people have the locus internalised. The seem not creating stories to link pao to palace. They just put the thing in the place And go on. Seems that they put the thing in the place. Like the Rambo weapon in the gates and that’s it. They seem to have the skill to compress the pao really fast and put in the place. If you put one thing in one place the cognitive effort is smallest. But I don’t know well. I’m guessing.