Words in Memory League

There are various problems with the words in Memory League at the moment and I am considering ways in which they can be improved.

Here are my suggestions:

  1. Have an independent list of words for each language, rather than trying to translate words across languages. This avoids problems where a word in one language does not translate well to another language.

  2. Use a consistent form of words in cases where there are multiple possible forms. For example, for English words, we may decide that nouns will have the singular form (e.g. “apple”), and verbs will have the infinitive form (e.g. “kick”). For French words, we may decide that nouns will have the singular form (e.g. “maison”), verbs will have the infinitive form (e.g. “aller”), and adjectives will have the masculine singular form (e.g. “grand”).

  3. Invite Memory League players to send me lists of suitable words for their language. There are various lists of frequently used words available on the internet which could be used as a starting point. The contributors would just need to make sure that the words they send have the consistent forms we have chosen.

  4. I would compile the word lists for each language, so that no competitor has the complete list. Of course, the goal would be to have the same number of words for each language.

If this sounds feasible, the first step would be to decide on the consistent forms for each language.

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Hey it’s ok if you give me the list of the English words in ml and I’ll translate them to Hebrew? because the Hebrew words in ml are horrible

I think if possible it would be great if people could also gather the frequency of each word in every language and then you could feed words of similar frequency in a similar sequence to the two competitors. Maybe even similar length (compared to all other words of the same language)

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@Simon
If you give me English words list I can translate to hindi.

One thing to consider, there are 2 types of hindi we speak first one is higher hindi that only few people speaks. And currently higher (special) hindi language words are in ml.

And second one is general hindi language that speaks by lots of people. and commonly used.

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Hi Simon,

I have sent you PM with possible suggestions.

Looking forward to it.

Regards,
Orkhan

One thing that looks really important to me is to have the same “possibilities” in different languages.

For example in Italian (and in other languages of course) we have both infinite verbs and nouns. In english this is not the same since there are no such a thing like “to try”, “to jump”, “to kick”, but just “try”, “jump”, “kick”.

To me this looks quite unfair since I (and other competitors in the same situation) have to mentally disinguish between a verb and a noun, instead an english opponent don’t have to do that. That’s a big difference.

The same of course occurs with other languages, english and italian are just an example.
The problem is that for some languages it is like that, for others is not and this creates inequalities.

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I agree with the post above but there “1000” things that could be inequalities.

Some languages have their words describe what it is in parts, where others have a to the point concept-word for it.
Motorbike in english could be more like “Gasoline-engine-bike-vehicle” to another.

Some languages have the last letters determine everything while some others just a slight shift in form.
Sometimes the one that can just glance at their words to instantly know what they are about get a unfair speed advantage & sometimes the once that have harder but more exact forms get a advantage in accuracy.

About the list:

  1. Sounds fair if done right. Not getting the same words can cause “luck” but we already have that in names.

  2. Sounds like a lot of work, but if someone is willing to do it, I can only be surprised not done already.

  3. Knowingly or otherwise, I think people would send words they like. That it would end up being to much words of medium difficulty instead of a spectrum-spread.

  4. Sounds like a full-time job to compile and quality check, while also most likely have us players complain about the result :wink:

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First, sorry for the wall of text, but answering to three different points (which all require at least a minimum of complexity to do them justice) can easily lead to that :).

Regarding @Simon’s post: think it might make sense to have a public list of all the problems that exist with words for each language, according to @Simon and others (in a read-only Google doc curated by someone, for example), and then to choose a suitable way to solve those.

Such first a stage of problem collection, with everybody listing all the problems they see with their own language set of words (publicly, not in private messages), would also ensure a kind of a “peer review” of supposed problems by other athletes of the same language, for example. Of course, this only works if people list general problems like “bad translations” and not every single case of a bad translation.

Notwithstanding that, my opinions regarding the options given by Simon Orton:

Reg. no 1: “De-coupling” the sets seems like a step back. Translations are in general the best way to ensure equality in my opinion and that should only be discarded if any option to make that work cannot solve potential problems sufficiently.

Reg no. 2: I would be very much in favor of only one form per category if there exist multiple ones, in a clearly defined way. It would require input from at least one person for each language, of course, and/or from a very gifted linguist like Nathalie if nobody steps forward for a language, to know what needs to be changed. It is undoubtedly a huge advantage if there is only one form of a noun, verb or adjective in one language and multiple ones in another and that should be remedied.

Regarding what Andrea mentioned: I had not thought of the fact that in some languages the infinitive form and a noun are with some degree of frequency identical. Have not checked how often that is the case in the concrete example. A (slightly heretical) question: might it be at least a hypothetical option to have two words like “to jump” in a language that needs a modifier to indicate verb forms? In the end, it would not be the same as people needing to learn “house wood” or “hand tree” in one cell, but the “only” additional task would be the requirement to memorize that it is a verb and not a noun, a task well-known in other languages.

If that is a total no-go by way of public opinion, also fine, of course, but it would only make it a tiny bit longer to read (two letters …) and would on the other hand remedy the supposed problem (if it is a problem: would be very interesting to hear the experience of athletes who memorize in English: maybe it could even also have disadvantages like taking a bit longer before being able to form a clear image because you first need to decide whether it is a noun or a verb). Doing it like that would also not lead to a complete weakening of the “one word principle” if it is a very narrowly defined exception. One way why that might not be feasible could be that it might require two word cells in many other cases, although I do not see those at the moment apart from the narrow scope of a word/noun identity.

This is just an example and it shows that there might be many more which will need discussion.

Reg no. 3: I do not think it is necessary that people send in their own word list. As long as the translations across disciplines are done well, it should be ok. People sending in their words might lead to an advantage for those sending the words in because they know the list and others don’t, for example. Making the lists public to counter that also seems like a bad solution because that then leads to everybody learning their whole list, which would make it a different discipline. All in all, leads to more problems than it would solve, in my opinion.

As a general note, I think if people have proposals, they should be posted here, in public. And if proposals are sent to Simon Orton in private nonetheless, they should be posted here, too, so that everybody can take a look. Hard to see another solution to keep the process transparent.

Great that we are tackling this topic :slight_smile: .

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Hi, @Simon I would like to bring to attention this topic again since it’s was not further discussed in this last 2 months.

Like I said I do think that there are inequalities in the words discipline, especially referred to the fact that in english (I don’t know for other languages) there is no distinction between verbs and respective nouns making it easier compared to other languages. That’s not a small difference, especially in close matches.

Have you had the opportunity to think of some possible solutions?
Just a proposal: why not adding the infinite to the verbs to have this distinction? In english would be “jumping”, “kicking”, in addition to “jump”, “kick”… or “to jump”, “to kick”

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Wow didnt realize that was something you have to overcome… that is tricky, a huge disadvantage for you.

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Hi, @Simon
I also have a post about words discipline modification in traditional Chinese, and I offer a simple suggestion of possible solution. But it seems that you didn’t see the post. If you are available, please check it and evaluate whether it works or not. Thank you very much.

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I totally agree with @JennPederson that languages all have inherent discrepancies and some parts are easier, some are more difficult. A lot of languages depend on context or don’t have specific masculine or feminine, or articles etc

I think it is impossible to make words in different languages exactly fair. You might think that you have an advantage when you don’t have a difference between a verb and a noun but it can actually be confusing at times. For a french or italian speaker, there is a definite distinction between a written verb and the attached noun, whereas for an english speaker some words which spell the same don’t have the same pronunciation (which almost never happens in french or german for example).

We have a tendency to look at what bothers us more than what favors us, so I agree with @SimonReinhard and I don’t think people should create their own word lists and just send them. Let the people who are linguists and in charge of translations create data sets across languages.

If people really think the words discipline is unfair, then we either change the discipline or create a new one: you could use Klingon, Elvish or made up words. (which could actually be quite fun)

I also agree with @SimonReinhard that de-coupling sets is a step back, I don’t see how this could make things fairer. I like to know that my adversary is at least memorizing the same images as I am even if he’s using slightly different words.

I also think that to make things clearer for everyone and easier for @Simon, we need a consistent form of words for each language. At least this way the rules and forms can be clear for each competitor and it can alleviate some doubts during recall and competitions.

Once more, thanks @Simon for proposing this and for improving an already great tool !

Thanks everyone for the helpful feedback. We are working on revising the words now.

We will stick with the idea of translating words rather than having independent lists.

For the English words, @AndreaMuzii’s suggestion of using the “ing” form of verbs should work nicely to differentiate them from nouns.

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Nice to hear that

It will be difficult to make everything completely fair across languages. In English, for instance, we have one disadvantage that there are many more synonyms, e.g. room/chamber, friendly/amicable because we have words of both Anglo-Saxon and French origin. Creating new rules (e.g. adding “ing” for verbs as mentioned above) might cancel out a disadvantage for some languages but could potentially increase difficulty in languages that are already inherently trickier (not saying this is definitely the case for any particular language, but it could be).

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I agree with Katie that it can’t be fair across all languages at all and that changing something now in terms of some forms will just push the “problem” into another place. Solving one issue will only open up others.

Also I’m having a hard time getting this in general. How can I as a native German speaker claim that the words discipline is more difficult than in another language just because a specific form in my language does not exist in another one? Other difficulties might exist in other languages which I don’t even realize.

Furthermore, two forms of a word in a specific language might sound difficult or hard to distinguish for someone who is not a native speaker of this language. However the native speaker of this language grew up with this difference and naturally distinguishes between them without a problem.

Personally I feel that every form of a word gives me a different impression. A verb and a noun are totally different to me and distinguishing between them is a rather natural thing than an extra effort.

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Hello all.
I have recently realised there is one more problem with words, which I think no one has pointed out before.

I don’t know any other language in which this problem might also appear. I hope I can explain it plainly.

Let’s take an English verb ‘jump’. You can say that someone was jumping. You can also say that someone jumped. The infinitive is ‘jump’ for both cases. English speakers use different tenses to distinguish if the action was continuous or not. In Polish language we have different verbs for that. If I want to say in Polish ‘He was jumping’ I would use a verb ‘skakać’. If I want to say ‘He jumped’ I would use a verb ‘skoczyć’. On Memory League we both get ‘continuous’ and ‘simple’ verbs in Polish language. I would suggest using only ‘simple’ or only ‘continuous’ forms of the verbs, I believe it would make the games more equal for the languages that use different verbs and the languages that use different tenses to express continuity of an action.

I struggled with this problem both on Memory League and in the IAM competitions. I would be really grateful if this point could be considered while making changes to words in Memory League. It would also be great if a new rule could be made for the IAM words.

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Just think that I’m doing as well in Chinese (my foreign language) and in Italian (my mother tongue), exactly because of this reason: Chinese has no inflectional morphology, i.e. words are always in the same form, never change.
I think it’s a good point to make the game more balanced between competitors from different countries.

Anyway, let me say that other disciplines could be affected by similar language-related problems. For instance, in Names we Italians have to deal with a relatively limited amount of usual/frequent personal names (whilst Italian family names are exponentially more differentiated and numerous); instead, in Chinese there are thousands and thousands of different personal names (compared to a very limited set of family names). I think that this makes Names Easier for us Italians, and harder for the Sinophones.

Anyway, it’s interesting to think about an intelligent way to solve this.
Bless,

e.

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Actually I’m pretty confident in saying that italian names are harder, especially compared to, again, english. Because the dataset is composed by many names that are not properly italian and that people never heard before; this matter already came out multiple times, also during matches.

Then the fact that chinese is harder doesn’t make another language easier, but of course is a problem.

For words is more evident anyway, but it seems this subject got lost again.

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If you are comparing names with English, then I am super confident that hindi names are way too much difficult.

Seriously almost all names are like, never heard of that name. most of them have spelling mistakes as well. (That’s why, I have no choice but to memorize names in English.)

If we are talking about international names, then nothing to say. lots of strange names with strange letters.

some names starts with circle like structure in international names, but there is no names start with that sign. (And most important thing how to type that in keyboard, lol)

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