Who says 2 Card system helps us in longer events like hour cards watchout munukhsur using pao with 34.15 decks

answer me those who were saying in some articles that 2 card system is better for longer events . munukshur and enkshur with PAO broke hour cards record in 2017 memory championship
Pao is considered to have repeated images so i want to know how she could managed to do that ???

Their current performance are extremely impressive to say the least, but I would guess that in the long run they would do even better with a 2-card system.

How many years of practice did they take to achieve that.?
Alex is doing great already in just 2 years i think, so can you imagine how much more in 5 or more years?

u didnt said which i expected

It appears that Munkhshur did 37 decks in the WMSC 2017 event (held in China right after the IAM World Championship in Indonesia). Now that there are 2 entities - IAM and WMSC, there is also ambiguity in what would count as the World Record: would both entities have their own WRs or would the fastest ones irrespective of the entity get that title? Anyway, I digress.

Coming to your question,

The ones who claim that a 2 Card System helps in longer events do not do so without reason. It is quite clear that 2 Card users have to memorise 26 images per deck as against 52 for PAO users, and the fact that having a greater pool of images (be it 1352 or 2704) reduces repetition to a great extent. Adding up the numbers, it makes perfect sense that 2 Card would, in theory at least, ease memorising. The other side of the coin is the apparent disadvantages like having a large pool of perhaps several similar images against only 300 (which can be easily made highly unique) of PAO users, not to mention the ease with which PAO users can quickly cycle through their images to fill in gaps.

I wouldn’t say that the Mongolian twins would do better with a 2 Card system, because speaking of hour cards strictly, they are actually doing much better than a lot of people using 2 Card. Although I would give Alex the benefit of doubt because last year in Indonesia, he faced a rather unfortunate scenario in his hour cards event where evidence from the deck arrangement patterns he got clearly suggests that they were tampered with, making it much more challenging to memorise via his 2 Card System. He ended up scoring 27.5 decks, which I suppose could’ve easily been in the 30s had things not gone the way they did. (Details can be found here under the Day 2 description: https://mullenmemory.com/blog/wmc2017)

From what I’ve read, Alex started using 2 Card in 2014, so I don’t suppose there is a large gap in the time the athletes in question started with their systems, if at all.

Clearly, the twins and other Mongolians who are successfully using PAO have found some kind of effective solution to minimise the adverse impact of image repetition, which seems to be the only negative (albeit a big one) for longer events making use of PAO. Now whether it is greater distinction and uniqueness in terms of their loci for different decks, sheer practice, or their innate ability to handle repetition so smoothly, is yet to be known.

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Shasan ! Thanks for your elaborate answers

Let me just unleash some math on it.

A single-card PAO system will have 525150 possible different images. That is 132600 different images. Unleashing some probability calculations on it shows that you can expect a duplicate image for every 430 images. 1776 cards is 392 images.

The odds that you get one duplicate image is around 45%, the odds that you get two are around 14% and the odds that you get three are down to 6%. I can live with those odds, especially if you also take the interaction with the loci in account, which will lower the odds of two confusing images even more. if 2% of all your loci are beds, the chance that one identical image ends up on two different places, and both on a bed are less than 1%.

PAO is great for memorizing a very long string of numbers/cards, it just isn’t great for everyone.

Quote :
A single-card PAO system will have 525150 possible different images.

You are referrimg to the pao combo. The problem of repitition for me is the the 1 card ex. For 52 people, since there are only 52 people sometimes you will have to remember the same person again.

Quote:
From what I’ve read, Alex started using 2 Card in 2014, so I don’t suppose there is a large gap in the time the athletes in question started with their systems, if at all…

Alex can still improve his record. So i really think that he has not yet reached his limit.

@Shasan, Theorically we can say that she could’ve do better than Alex in Long card event but on the other hand we can’t say so, just think about it. She know that 300 image so well that she can put 3 image to make it look like just 1 image and if she use 2 card system even with what her training method right now will not do that great BECAUSE THERE IS A SYSTEM THAT FITS TO OTHER BETTER THAN ANYONE and also she would have to practice 1326 or 2652 images which would divide her improvent into FOUR cuz there are so many images to skillfully master it. I’m not saying it’s impossible for her:) But the system fits so well to her that make it possible for her to achieve that kind of level.
:slight_smile: :slight_smile:

@MarkJoseph029, indeed, the man is unstoppable :slight_smile: I’d like to add that Enkhsur has also been improving well. Her scores on Memory League are about 18s in Cards, from what I’ve seen myself. Don’t know about Munkhshur, because she doesn’t have a separate account on Memory League (perhaps they share the account?) that I know of, but I surmise that she’d be improving as well and would easily be sub-20s by now. It appears that the systems that Alex, Enkhshur and Munkhshur use are quite fitting for them.

@Jayrold,
I think you didn’t read the entire thing I wrote above haha, this is what I said, and I’m quoting my own post above:

So if Munkshur can get 37 decks using PAO in 1 hour, it is quite clear that her system suits her extremely well.

All in all, I believe that a person can do well with the system they actually believe in, and have faith in. Of course, some systems are inherently weaker and have a certain limit, for instance, in Numbers, we can’t expect a one digit system to be faster than a 2 digit or 3 digit system. So it is safe to say that a 1 digit system in Numbers is weaker than a 2 digit and 3 digit system. However, the same cannot be said while comparing a 2 digit and 3 digit system (or a 1 Card and 2 Card system, for that matter) because we have living proof in the present top athletes, some of which use a 2 digit system (and 1 Card) and some 3 digit (and 2 Card), so it would be wrong to consider one inferior to the other. There are certain metrics in terms of which one is superior or inferior, but on the whole, it is not right to make the judgement of one being better than the other. Most Mongolians have faith in PAO and hence their results reflect that. I am of the opinion that if a person even has a 2 Card System and himself/herself doesn’t think that they can remember all images well or become faster with it, then I’m afraid it’s unlikely for them to get the best results. We can try to get all the validation that we want from others about which system is the best, but the reality is (in my opinion) that unless we’re ourselves content with the system we’re using, not much can be done. It is only a matter of belief.

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I agree with a lot of what Shasan says. Having faith in one’s system actually plays a big part in one’s success with it. It’s fantastic to have examples of great performances achieved with all types of systems, this should reduce the stress of choosing which system to use for those who are new to the game! Just pick one that you like (for other reasons than your goals) and run with it :slight_smile:

What is Enkhshur’s account on ML by the way?

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Her account is currently #3 on the leaderboard, by the name of e159.

PAO is always the combo, if you just use persons it is just P, not PAO.

@mayarra.
What i mean is that repetition problem in pao happens in the the 1 card like the 52 person , for me it is confusing to memorize the same person again. I think tnat is what they meant by having repetiton in pao

What you have calculated : A single-card PAO system will have 525150 possible different images. That is 132600 different images. Unleashing some probability calculations on it shows that you can expect a duplicate image for every 430 images. 1776 cards is 392 images.

Is the pao as a whole.

@Shasan, Yeahh sorry I just kind of zoom it through.
@MarkJoseph09, Removed all the numbers you said. With enough practice that doesn’t matter at all. For us not to confuse our image and be better, we can try to memorize 100 digits using 1 digits. 10000 using 2 digits, 100000 using 3 digits if can. This will help us , at least I think, on long events not to confuse for repeating images.

Pao is better because it is a 3-card system and for multiple decks of cards it is better to do 1 deck per memory palace.

World record with 2 card system north Korean people took to 48+ decks
So 2 card is best for long cards
Pao is secondary in this format

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