I’ll talk about a specific incident I’ve had about a week ago. I was talking on the phone with a coworker, and he explained something to me. I understood what he explained, and we continued talking.
After a few minutes where we talk about other things, we get back to the above mentioned topic, and I suddenly realized I don’t remember what he explained to me, so I had to ask him to explain again.
This isn’t the first time this happened, and I’m not sure but it might be focus/attention related?
I was hoping to hear what you think, and how I can avoid this in the future.
If this is indeed focus related, I searched for ways to improve my focus but all of them talk about how to do that in the moment, for example if I need to study. I want a way to be prepared for “unexpected” situations, like the one I mentioned.
What do you mean by “focus” and/or “attention”? There are quite a few definitions out there for either or a combination of the two, such as “focused attention.”
What do you mean by “focus” and/or “attention”? There are quite a few definitions out there for either or a combination of the two, such as “focused attention.”
I don’t know myself why this happened, and I assume it’s due to a problem with focus, or some attention problem.
What was unexpected about that phone call?
I’ll try to explain. If I need to study, for example, then I can use some techniques for focus for the next few hours. I know I’m supposed to study therefore it is expected.
However, I cannot predict someone calling me to explain about professional stuff. Therefore I cannot use those focus techniques.
Taking focus in the widest definition, you could say it is indeed focus related. Now, what follows is what I see most, so if it is not like I will describe, do say so!
It is a generalisation, but you could say everyone has a preferred sense. Some people need to see, some need to hear, some need to feel, etc.
Say you prefer visual information. Your brain will then want to translate every other bit of information to images. That is where it usually starts.
Secondly, your brain is adding and adding and adding to that image, it gets so into the flow of creating images that it forgets to listen. So eventually your brain turns to you and says “okay! My masterpiece is done! What next?” And you dont know, because your brain is dumb and doesnt realize that it is also the thing that has to do the listening, it just expects you to be able to do that on your own. So you are focussed, but on the wrong thing. Human brains are often silly like that.
That gives you two ways to deal with it. You can train to be more fluent in hearing without translating. You could do this by having more phone calls, or just by trying to follow something like an audio book without turning things into images. (Phone calls tend to be the easiest, as it also tackles the next thing right away)
You can also practice to be in the moment. It sounds very guru-like due to the mindfullness hype, but that is what it comes down to.
Something that helps there is to write it down. People tell you something over the phone and rather than memorize it, just write it down. That gets rid of the need to translate it into something your mind understands.
Expected or unexpected, once you pick up the phone, that is what you will do at that moment. So keep your mind there, drop what you are doing and aim your mind on the phone call.
P.S.
Goldfish actually have pretty good memories. They can even be trained and conditioned. For example, they can learn to find their way in a maze and they can learn that they are about to get food when a certain light switches on or a certain sound plays. Memories that can stay around for at least five months.
Then I wish I had the memory skills of a goldfish!
Seriously now, I somewhat understand what you’re saying. I know it was meant to be an example, but I do prefer visual information. I don’t turn things into images (I have aphantasia), I just find it easier to understand things when I see them, rather than explained “in the air”.
What I understand from what you’re saying is that while talking, I have the need to start understanding what is being said to me right now, and so while that happens, everything else that is being said to me is just lost because I’m still focused on trying to understand the first thing.
That is indeed a problem I have, but I’m not sure about your solutions, because:
If I receive N pieces of information and don’t decipher them right away, I won’t remember them. I wasn’t kidding about saying I have the memory of a fish (fixed it) . [if what you wrote also applies to fish, I have to say I have greatly underestimated fish…]
I won’t always have a notebook with me, think talking on the phone while driving or just while walking in the street.
About what you said in being in the moment… that’s very general and if there is something I can do regarding this, and you think this is actually helpful - do you have any advice on how to implement this?
Which of the two is it? If your problem is that you are not primed yet because the call happened unexpected, then just tell them you are finishing up something and you’ll call them back in the next 5-10 minutes.
If it’s the latter… well, you’re forcing your brain into multitasking. Probably shouldn’t be solving math equations either whilst driving. Again, the answer here… “hey, I’m still on my way to the office. Let me call you back when I get there.”
Just wanted to add that sounds frustrating, and I think a lot of people struggle with not being one hundred percent “there” and how it can feel demoralizing at times.
I personally struggle with reading comprehension at times. I actually often will meditate or exercise because it will help me from re-reading the same section over and over, while my mind is somewhere else. It helps to me be mindful of other things and be more focussed on the task at hand generally.
I am interested in the fact that you said you understood what your coworker explained, but could not recall it later.
Because you said you did understand it initially, it sounds to me like you may have experienced a common phenomenon called the “illusion of knowing”. I first heard this described in a book called “Make It Stick” https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18770267-make-it-stick), which is about learning for long term retention. I personally found the book extremely helpful. It changed the way I think about learning.
An important principle the authors raise is the fact that people tend to be terrible judges of what they truly have learned and will retain. It is common for students, for example, to read some study material and feel as though they understood it easily, so they expect they will remember it easily later on. Precisely because they feel confident that they understood it–it seemed so clear to them–they do not bother to invest in further effort to cement it in their memories. Predictably, once they encounter the topic at exam time, they discover they either didn’t understand anywhere near as profoundly as they thought, or they simply cannot recall what they understood.
So, the authors advocate that we all become aware of this “illusion of knowing” phenomenon–and that it is common to all humans. They advocate that we become aware of it so we can guard against it. But it also helps to know about it so that we, as individuals, don’t feel like there is something defective about us personally. It is pretty normal to be fooled by the illusion of knowing. We often think we learning something–it feels so straightforward, so easy to grasp–but then it turns out later that we either cannot explain it clearly, or we cannot recall it whatsoever.
However, while it is normal for us to suffer this bias, it is something that we should try to remedy.
I don’t know if there is a perfect remedy, but there are things we can do. First and foremost: remember that the illusion of knowing is a real thing. It’s a human condition, not a personal defect. Second, try to find a way to practice retrieval and testing shortly after you learn something. (And again later.) Of course, it’s one thing to learn in a study situation. In your example–in the middle of an impromptu conversation, when you don’t have a notepad handy–there will definitely be practical constraints on what you can expect to accomplish.
In the book, there are several strategies for making information stick. Two of them are closely related. Retrieval and testing. You should read the book to get more details than I will discuss here. But, essentially, if you learn something–even if you feel you understand it perfectly–you need to perform a recall operation shortly after to help ensure that it really is retrievable from memory. (I can’t tell you the number of times I encoded a mnemonic beautifully, only to realize I should have done at least one recall operation to make sure I could retrieve and decipher my own images.) But you will also benefit from testing yourself. Testing is really retrieval practice, but sometimes with some additional methods to make retrieval a bit easier or a bit harder. Sometimes, you might provide a clue. Other times you might make the question tricky. Testing has been shown to be one of the best methods for cementing information for long term retention. The beauty of testing is that the effort to perform a test actually improves long term retention, even if you got the answer wrong and had to relearn it.
Once again, please note that I am glossing over the topic. I would recommend you read the book to get a much better explanation.
The challenge in your case, is that you were in the middle of a conversation. So, start by cutting yourself some slack. For one thing, asking somebody to go back over something discussed at the beginning of a conversation is nothing to apologize for. It shows that you valued what they told you enough to try to remember. Another thing is that it is very hard for most people to remember everything they discuss, including the things they thought they understood during the course of a long conversation where the topics change. A few exceptional people can do it, but I would bet that it was a trained skill for most of them. And even their performance would probably vary, depending on other factors: were they fully engaged? were they tired? were they stressed or distracted? Was it the beginning of the day? The middle of the workday? Nighttime? Mileage will vary.
Is it possible to become better at these situations? Yes. But that would take practice. It also involves getting to know your own mind and looking for concrete strategies.
If you want to make it a life goal to be better at remembering conversations, or at least parts of conversations, you could start by setting up a behavior modification plan. That might involve setting a goal to remember at least a part of every conversation each day. \That will help prime your mind for the task.
Next, you might make a rule that you will speak up at least once during each (non-trivial) conversation to ask your interlocutor to wait while you repeat back what you understood. This will force you to retrieve and should help reveal any points you didn’t properly understand.
Another thing you could do is to set up a standard behavior where you commit yourself from the beginning to performing a test or otherwise actively using your knowledge, somewhere near the end of the discussion–or even later. We tend to prioritize memory for things that we know we will have to use later.
I could go on and on, but I am not really sure if this actually is your issue–or if what I said was clear or helpful. Bottom line, if this sounds like something you can relate to, please consider reading “Make It Stick” to get a better explanation and some good ideas.
I think this is an area that is poorly understood, including even in competitive memory.
I have experienced times when my mind is fully taking in everything. I can’t remember how I got to that state but I know it’s a very strange feeling. It’s like your entire experience of reality up until that point has been through a half closed lens.
This might affect memory because as we know, if you see more detail that helps you remember your images in training.
I teach a child who I might label ADHD, if we just use this label as a placeholder for a moment.
At first it’s baffling trying to teach her but then after a while I realised SHE’S LOOKING BUT NOT SEEING.
In her case it’s because despite my wild attempts, nothing can consistently hold her attention. And while it looks like she’s paying attention, she’s not. I might ask to remember 2 things in her mind and then draw them and she can’t do it. It’s baffling but basically she, and other people like her don’t have control of their own attention.
I’m a little bit the same and I think this too is a source of problems for me. However, is it an advantage? I’ve noticed that people who play computer games are more likely to have the same issue. I think we spot things in the perhiphial better. I think in general computer games make kids smarter but much harder to teach because of the attention conditioning they’re getting from the games. It’s just anecdotal though. Another way to put it is that we can focus in bursts when we need to but only according to need.
So an ADHD person can make a good paramedic with hyperfocus. It all depends. It’s not something I fully understand and I need to know more.
I’ll be investigating the links and books in this thread.
Very interesting discussion. One observation and one recommendation.
Observation: I find phone calls to be difficult because I feel like my visual systems are looking for input and I’m only getting auditory. It’s almost a hunger and it’s very distracting.
Recommendation: Take notes. Writing forces you to pay attention, and the act of writing helps You to cement the information. I rarely refer back to my notes but I still find it worthwhile. I have read that writing by hand cements knowledge more than typing.
In response to nettek, I will meditate or exercise before I read. I will often meditate first thing in the morning, even if it’s just for 10-15 minutes, sometimes in bed. I find it helps.
Thank you, Darn, so much for this reply. I’m sorry it took me so long to answer - this was the result of procrastination.
Anyway, those tips you gave me seem like really good advice. I do often test myself in knowledge that I consider the basics of my engineering degree, so I see why it’s something that helps. I’ll make sure to try what you proposed.
I’ll also think about buying the book, it’s just that I have a history of buying a book, getting excited, reading maybe 10-20 first pages and then forget about it, so I need to fully commit myself before spending any money.
Your reply was very clear and helpful, and like I said, I’ll try to practice those tips. Thanks
Can you elaborate on the book? Why do you think I should buy it?
As you can see in my reply above, I’m not much into reading self-help books so it needs to be worth it…
do you do memory training? I don’t why and how is that really helpful to me, since I started simple memory training, my brain can focus more. It’s more I’m training myself how to remember things subconsciously. when I’m receiving information now, my brain kinda translates it in a imaginative/funny ways so If i’m distracted, i tend to remember it easier.
. [if what you wrote also applies to fish, I have to say I have greatly underestimated fish…]