How to multiply loci in memory palace and structure a palace for Language Learning?

[cameri]

First off, I couldnt agree more, especially the part where its not worth complicating things !
And your description of what youre doing for languages, I am actually doing the same.

But I still use loci when necessary.

The loci method is actually as simple as it gets, if one does not complicate it. Thats why I got inspired by children learning with loci !! You take an image and place it on your bed. You dont need to find a palace beforehand, you dont need to prepare stations, you just have to start putting your mnemonic wherever you think of, in your case:

Mnemonic: kneading wire (avoir) in a basin/bassoon or kneeing a basin/bassoon.

I place those images the most memorable way I can in my towns music (bassoon) conservatory I go to concerts often, and I instantaneously, believe it or not, and like many other loci users, place my next images without overthinking it at all.

You see, unlike you, I have trouble recalling many linked images, even with my best creativity, so for me loci saved me

also, loci for me = faster and more fun than only linking and rote memorizing and anki.

There are plenty of memory techniques users learning languages with loci.

If its just a few words to learn : I do do the same thing as you ! No need to place anything in a palace or journey.

But if its a whole sentence and/or conversation, grammar rule with an example, etc. : loci time hehe !

I started out with linking alone but I got frustrated when I wanted to learn more words, expressions, but already had as much as I could that were only using basic mnemonics ; with loci, I have less problems adding info and recalling even more material. I have no limits and can even practice dialogue and conversations(gamechanger!).

Whatever works, right ? But one technique doesnt exclude the other. I use many methods at the same time and it doesn’t complicate things, on the contrary.

Could you share your complete method for learning languages here ? I am very much interested and, many more here will be thrilled to hear about it.

But regarding your opinion of loci being too tardy for languages, I and many others are living proof that it is not accurate. But again, to each its own… But I and many others here have shared countless examples of how the loci method does not need to be harder than any other technique and be a great tool for language learning and much more!

I agree with you MP can lead many to over plan, over complicate, etc. And believe me I did when I first experimented with them. But like many others, I quickly realized I dont need to plan a palace and stations and think about all of it before hand (thank you Alex Mullen !), I just place them on the fly wherever.

But I had to develop the skill and I am a witness that anyone can because I have seen so many different kind of people make it and I was terrible at beginning.

Just have to start small, and it will quickly become as simple and instantaneous as you wished it wouldve been when you tried it.

But instead of just working on a dozen French-English words linked, you can have hundreds, and sentences, and expressions, and whole conversations. Its so awesome.

I should mention, I only place the stuff that I have a harder time of remembering with my normal mnemonics (like the example you offered)

Also, when I compare the steps taken to use a memory palace with the majority of systems there is simplicity and also, and many here have testified to that : it can be instant. You just have to get started, start small, now Im rambling, but boy is this a passionate subject to me because it has the power to change lives like it did mine.

Wooo I apologize for the crazy messy post, I hope there at least one little something that helps someone here.

[maxo]

Some good points cameri thank you.

Yes, many use MP for languages and I’m pleased it works for them

For most of my work I use MP. in fact I’m in a huge project at the moment all requiring MPs.

Perhaps someone reading our posts will get a benefit in some way towards their road to languages…

Thanks again

[zvuv]

I have over time learned about seven languages, some spoken, some written. Were I to do it over, I would absolutely use @RMBittner’s town idea.

Said this before, but I’ve always felt that emphasis on accumulating raw vocabulary in language learning is misguided. Boxes and boxes of dry dusty words.

It is true that a strong vocabulary is a reliable indicator of strong linguistic skills. But it’s just a correlation, not a cause. The vocabulary is not the root of a person’s ability, it’s a symptom. An expert craftsman may own a fabulous suite of tools, but acquiring those tools will not make you into a craftsman.

You did not learn English or your native tongue this way and English speakers with strong vocabularies are almost always the result of a great deal of reading or some other exposure to the language in living form.

It may seem that a small child is limited by his vocabulary. That’s only a bit true. You can tell him the words he doesn’t know - he will have no use for them. He is limited by his experience. I have a clear memory from 3 years of age of being told I was going to meet my grandfather. I had no clue what a grandfather was or much understanding of extended family relationships. I could say the word. It meant nothing. I wasn’t sure if they meant ‘meet’ or ‘meat’.

That’s what limits a new speaker in a foreign language. Experience using the language and learning words as part of a context both linguistic and situational. This is why progress is so rapid when you are in an environment where the language is spoken.

The town idea, and variations is brilliant for this. You can create interactions. Ask for directions. Navigate the town using directions in a foreign language. Tell jokes. Have arguments. Go for coffee, get pulled over… Collect phrases, conversations, the language in living form. This is far richer than boxes packed with words.

[jason7 (Jason Carrillo)]

@zvuv would you be able to share some of the things you regretted in your journey of learning 7 languages? That’s awesome.

My thought is that the town idea is great for practicing conversation and further enhancing speech, however to me it seems that it wouldn’t be the best for first learning vocabulary. Metivier made a good point in some of his posts that memory palaces can be much more “fun” to review and enhance than a simple town with day to day activities. Do you agree?

I think learning vocabulary and grammar etc. would be best done utilizing memory palaces to drive it into long term memory but maybe using a town to practice.

[jason7 (Jason Carrillo)]

@cameri thanks for your input. I’m currently in a month long Arabic intensive in the basics of levantine colloquial arabic. After the month I will strategize on memory palace creation or a mix of that and the town method and I will report my findings and results here sometime after I’m practicing for a few months.

[zvuv]

Let me clarify a bit. IMO one does need to study vocabulary when learning a language. It’s necessary but not sufficient. What you really want is fluency. In English you don’t assemble speech out of words and grammar rules - whole sentences appear in you brain fully formed. This is because you know something deeper than grammar or vocab, you know the patterns of speech. You have stored in your brain a large library of speech patterns that are somewhat independent of the actual words. The rising tone of a question, the flat measures of a sarcastic compliment, the indignant response, pompous declarations. They are all there in your brain and they provide a large part of your fluency. When you hear the start of an English sentence you have some idea where it’s going to go. In fact you may be able to end the sentence itself.

I’ve said this before, I found this out for myself, you can accomplish this surprisingly easily. I’ve explained at length elsewhere but I think it worth repeating in this thread. If the brain is exposed to the sound of a language, it will start to wire itself up to recognize the speech patterns. Just like it did when you were a child although not as fast. It doesn’t take effort just exposure.

If you learn a musical instrument, you do start by learning the fingering for the individual notes but you don’t really learn them properly until you start playing a tune. Once you can play just one tune, even badly, it’s a game changer. A musician’s ability to ad lib is not based on the number of notes he can play, it’s founded on a vast library of tunes and musical patterns that he’s probably not even thinking about when he plays. He does need to know the notes. And he does need to hit them precisely but that’s not music.

Find YT news videos in that language, or whatever material you can find, and have it playing in the background. Not programs for language students. You want the full blown adult version of the language spoken at regular speed. Just choose someone with clear diction. Listen with half an ear. Don’t try too hard. You just choke up the process. Half an ear is all you need. Likely you will understand nothing at first. After a while you will pick out words and start to get a feel for the rhythm of the sentences. You will find your brain repeating them and it will sound like a native Arabic or whatever speaker.

It’s also a good idea to listen to the very same video once every day - together with a variety of others.

Take a book, again a grownup book. Pick a page and read it over once or twice every day. Look up words as you feel like - it’s not important that you understand all the words right away. What you are learning is a block of speech patterns and your brain will reuse them with other words.

Constant low level exposure is the key. Don’t force your concentration. You didn’t when you were a child. Your brain will do the job by itself if you are patient.

At first this might seem hopeless. Likely you won’t even be able to pick out the words. Doesn’t matter. It didn’t when you were 3 yrs old.

It can be really uncomfortable at first - don’t push too far beyond your comfort zone. If you do this, even for just a week, you will see it start to happen and, strangely it becomes much easier to learn vocab because now your brain has a place for these words.

Another comment about vocab. You can’t just learn words. Have you ever tried this in your Native tongue - set about increasing your vocab by just learning words? It’s not very effective. They won’t come to mind when you need them. In fact you don’t really know them in the way you need even though they are memorized. Only when you use them, do you really learn them. The way you learn your vocabulary is always part of a sentence or phrase whether in real life or reading or movies.

Lastly there’s a deep psychological barrier to taking a foreign language on board. It threatens your own identity in a primitive way. These people are foreign. A little child learns his native tongue eagerly because he is dying to be accepted, to participate in his society he wants to be one of them. You must cultivate this attitude. If you want to learn Arabic, you must feel it really important that the Arabic speaking peoples accept you as an adult. You must really want to take part in their talk and their lives. What they are doing should seem really important and interesting. Perhaps for a while you should feel that Arabic is more important, more valuable than the language you speak now. You have to “go native” at least in your mind.

[zvuv]

I posted this video once before, so I apologize. But IMO it’s a very clear demonstration of what I’m talking about. The video went viral because it is so cute but more importantly for this topic is that the little boy is speaking English. He’s mastered the speech patterns of a basic English conversation, together with the body language, even though he doesn’t have a single word of vocab. Were that a Spanish family, he would have sounded very different. This is how language is learned naturally. The patterns are first.

Little boy & Dad

[LynneKelly]

Please don’t apologise for posting the video link twice. I hadn’t picked up on the first time and this whole discussion is fascinating.

I really appreciate you putting so much time into responses. It will take me a while to digest them all which shows how valuable it is. Hugely appreciated.

[RMBittner]

@jason7

My thought is that the town idea is great for practicing conversation and further enhancing speech, however to me it seems that it wouldn’t be the best for first learning vocabulary. Metivier made a good point in some of his posts that memory palaces can be much more “fun” to review and enhance than a simple town with day to day activities.

I think you may be missing the point that the town is a memory palace, but on a giant, multi-building scale. As you walk through the grocery store in the town, every aisle and shelf are full of loci for storing all of the vocabulary you need for the items you’d find there. Same for the dress shop, the bookstore, the furniture store, etc. Parks, schools, train stations, bus stops, etc. all provide thousands of loci for vocabulary.

Bob

[Readerly]

I can vouch for your method of low-level exposure. I have been consuming Japanese media for the better part of a decade, and I have experienced many of the effects you describe in your post. Though I personally know maybe less than 100 or 200 words in Japanese, I find that I can hear out individual words. For example, instead of hearing: “Hellomynameisehcolston” as one word, I can instead hear them as individual words.

Another interesting effect I’ve noticed is that Japanese speakers sound about the same speed as English speakers to me, even though typically Japanese speakers speak noticeably faster than English speakers.

[zvuv]

Heh. For a while I was a Kurosawa junkie and had a similar experience. Japanese started to sound familiar and comfortable and yes, after a while thing’s slow down and you start to parse the words. Some people learn English by watching Hollywood movies.

I had a friend who used to be a competitive bull rider! I asked him how the hell he had time to think, it all happened so fast. He told me - “You have to ride 100 bulls. Then things start to slow down.”

[Josh (Josh Cohen)]

@zvuv

For a while I was a Kurosawa junkie

Some of the colors on this site are loosely inspired by a Kurosawa scene. I’ve been watching his movies again lately.