Guitarninja's Japanese Training Journal

On September 7, 2023, I started taking a run at learning Japanese.

It’s not my first attempt. In high school, I read a couple of books written by Americans, describing their experience in Japan. With the thought that I might someday do a stint in the JET (Japan Exchange and Teaching) Program, I checked out a Learn Japanese on CD from my local library and studied it religiously. I dabbled again my freshman year of college, and built up a handful of phrases I could use as a way to connect with a friend who was a Japanese exchange student. All in all, I fell far short of even any basic conversational level, but it left me primed with a core vocabulary and understanding of some of the grammar concepts that are different than English. I did not know any of the writing systems at all.

I mostly put it down until this autumn, when, after taking a deep dive in some translations of classical Japanese poetry and literature, I started to feel a longing in my gut to give it another try. It’s totally impractical. I don’t plan on living in Japan. I don’t read manga or watch anime much anymore. I’m still not sure how much modern Japanese will even apply to the classical literature I’ve been reading. Nevertheless, after putting it off for several months because I didn’t have a perfect study plan, I finally just downloaded Duolingo on my phone and displaced most of the margins of my time, that previously I wasted on social media, with Duo’s Japanese program.

Duolingo does a pretty good job. It gradually builds grammar concepts and vocabulary. I rarely felt like it was leaving me behind. Everything is gamified, so it hits its users with just about every dopamine-generating trick in the book, which keeps me coming back every day, even if just to complete one or two lessons. The Japanese Language Proficiency Test (JLPT) has five proficiency levels, graded N5 through N1, from basic to fluent respectively. The internet claims that Duolingo’s Japanese course can take users to an N4 level, which is pretty impressive for a freemium program. It is ad-supported, or ad-free with a few extra features for subscribers.

However, after a month or so, the lessons started to get tedious, the progress slow, and my ability to say anything in Japanese that I would actually say in my daily life was still basically nothing. The lessons heavily focus on travel language, which makes sense for many learners, but is mostly dead weight for me. In fact, peeking ahead into the lessons that would occupy the next couple months, it became apparent that, besides some lessons about family and weather, the vast majority of the lesson topics would not help me talk about anything in my daily life. It also spends most (or maybe all) of the time in very formal, very rigid style, which is great to keep a foreigner touring a country from offending anyone, but not great for engaging with looser, conversational or colloquial content. And since using a language is essential to learning a language, I started looking for another tool to build my vocabulary and accelerate practicability.

Enter jldb.io. It has been a godsend. It is the tool I always wanted for all of my language studies. At it’s core, it is a robust, Japanese vocabulary spaced repetition system (SRS). I was going to set up Anki, but this effectively replaces it. Most importantly, it has the ability to create custom decks from texts. Find a text, copy it, paste it into the deck, and it extracts all of the vocabulary and kanji, and populates a deck. The only downside seems to be that it tends to add cards to cover all homonyms, not just the meaning in the text, so even small texts can get cluttered with a number of low-value distractions.

So, my current study regimen includes: at least a couple minutes of Duolingo, trying to hit 20-50 new cards per day in jpdb, and trying to engage with any practical content I can.

My ideal progression would be to find content (video, audio, written) that expands my vocabulary by around 10 cards, study the cards and then engage with the content. Unfortunately, I don’t think that exists. Tadoku has a ton of free graded readers, which are great, but aren’t made with that kind of systematic progression in mind.

I looked at making decks from Japanese rock lyrics, which might be a good way to go. Two songs from The Pillows showed that I had 1/4 to 1/3 of the vocab already, with 20-50 cards to get to 100%. That would give me some content I can play on repeat to when I can only study passively. However, I discovered with other custom decks that it can be a heavy lift with (what feels like) marginal payoff to spend a couple days memorizing cards just to read a children’s book. Maybe the educational payoff is higher than I think, but the dopamine payoff is extremely low. 1/3 to 1/2 of the vocabulary in the songs are less frequent than the top 3000 words. That doesn’t mean they are bad to learn. Rare vocabulary adds color. But, learning the most common words as a base helps me access more content, and lowers the targeted study required to engage with any content.

The tricky balance is this: how do I memorize the most frequent words, which will help me access the most content, while actually using the content as much as possible? I really don’t think language curricula think about this enough in any language I’ve studied. It is a tough nut to crack. Everyone’s experience and goals are different, so it is hard to tailor the curriculum to suit an individual in such a way as to get behind the wheel and actually start driving the language as early as possible. My best experience was in a college Spanish class that required weekly attendance in a conversation group where English was banned. I practiced listening and speaking, which is always harder than book assignments or group activities, points out the holes in my understanding, and turns them into vacuums to propel my desire to learn. I don’t have such a group for Japanese. So, I’m left with grinding through the core vocabulary list and trying to read and listen to content, and speak to myself in Japanese whenever I can. Engaging with content without comprehension is tedious and discouraging, and grinding through vocabulary is tedious, less satisfying, and less effective.

So, how do I get to that optimal memorization-to-engagement ratio? This is a personal puzzle, but, honestly, I think that cracking this nut would revolutionize language learning. I would love a directory that knows your vocabulary (like jpdb) and pairs it with texts that align with it, and stretch it just enough to make you interested in the new vocabulary, without the vocabulary-learning becoming tedious. “Suggested for you:” and then a variety of content that you could understand mostly or entirely.

I digress.

I seems like right now there is no shortcut across the sophomore barrens, that great expanse between being able to say “Thank you,” and “I think there is a huge, unexplored commonality between classical Japanese poetry and the writings of Henry David Thoreau.” It just takes time and patience.

Jpdb tells me that I know 169/910 (18%) words and 128/458 (27%) kanji in their top vocab deck (21% of the total cards). At 20 cards-per-day, it will take me 54 days to complete that deck. I’m 9% complete with the Top 3000 vocab deck. It will take me 174 days (6 months) to complete that deck at that pace. If I find book/podcast/lyric decks that take me a day or two to complete, it will probably double those numbers (because of the vocab that falls outside of those decks) and delay my core vocabulary, but also provide a ton of practical value (both for vocabulary-learning and, more importantly, language-learning,) while still growing my overall vocabulary base. But, the sooner I hit that top 3000 mark, the more content I can access.

I think I’m talking myself into at least trying the former, making custom decks to prepare me for different kinds of content while/and then consuming the content. It might slow down the core progress, by not overall vocabulary-building, with the added value of opening more ways to use the language “in the wild”, outside of the carefully curated confines of a curriculum. Tadoku, NHK Easy News, any podcast or Youtube video that has a transcript or closed captioning that can be extracted… without my dream directory, I just need to try making some decks out of them and see which ore veins have pay dirt.

The last piece, that I briefly touched on, but is different than most of the content-to-memorization workflow above, is conversation practice. I looked for Japanese college courses or clubs in my town to see if they had any conversation groups I could drop in on, and found nothing. I downloaded Hilokal and Tandem, which are, I’ll say, kinds of of social media platforms whose target audiences are language learners. I’ve lurked around a bit, and have listened to people talking in English and occasionally digressing into Japanese, or people only talking in Japanese, both of which were way above my pay-grade. I haven’t found a meeting room that has the same kind of focus, discipline, or leadership as my Spanish group, which is really needed to make it effective–someone that can engage individuals in a conversation at their level, keep the audience in mind with learning opportunities, and keep exchanges short enough to provide practice opportunities for everyone in the room. Once again, most of the benefits are only available for people who are more advanced, who can hang with meandering conversations, or find particular partners with matching skills and interests. Attempts to use ChatGPT as a text buddy so far have also produced content that is way out of my league.

Alright, I think I’ve covered what I’ve done so far, and got out into the frayed ends of what I’m experimenting with. I think you get the core idea. I’ll close with a few other notes that might interest anyone who wants to follow my journey here.

I’m doing this because I’ve found other’s journals helpful. My method has been informed by tons of other people graciously sharing their experience. It’s also encouraging to see someone’s progression. Progress in language learning can be so slow, sometimes, that it feels like an impossible task, especially doing it solo. Hopefully, this helps someone else on their journey.

This isn’t my first foray into language-learning. I studied French for a couple years in high-school, Spanish in college (as I already mentioned), two years of Koine Greek, and 1 1/2 years of Biblical Hebrew. The Greek I went on and memorized a top-something vocab deck on Memrise, and, up until last year, was in my Greek New Testament on the regular, at least at a level that I can read a decent amount of John’s writings, and some parts of the Septuagint, without stopping to look stuff up much. (Sorry Luke and Paul, y’all are pretty tough.) I really should re-engage in that to keep it polished, but I don’t want to distract from this project at the moment.

And finally, germane to this forum, I am using mnemonics as much as I can in this project. I developed a vocabulary PAO system to help with sticky words that I can’t find a more natural phonetic mnemonic for, which has really helped in a number of ways. First, it makes studying more fun. The feelings associated with rote repetition are heavy on failure, light on pleasure. For me, when I get a word, I don’t feel the joy of success, but rather the momentary relief of anxiety over failing. I probably need to see a counselor about that, but there it is for now. When I use an image from my system, it turns it into a fun game. When I encounter a word that I would have totally blanked on, and am able to use an image to dredge something out of the dark pit of forgetfulness, it feels so triumphant. Second, I believe it’s more effective. I wasn’t hitting any 50-new-cards days before my system. If I hit 20, I was haggard and exhausted afterwards. Now, I’m not hitting 50 every time (because the review pile after a 50 can take a while to get through), but overall my memorization velocity has increased. I can do my review and hit 50 on a walk, and get home feeling like I could do more. When I shrug and tell myself, “I’ll just do this one rote,” it almost always gets stuck and swirls through the top of the deck until I do the work to hang it on a peg, and then matriculates into memory. It’s remarkable, actually. It’s not like some people make mnemonics sound when they write about it, as if it’s “one weird trick to photographic memory” or something. It still takes work. But, it immediately gave me some appreciable boost (15-20%?) in my ability to recall words. I see the same difference between the kanji on jpdb that have mnemonic images, versus those that don’t. The ones that do just have that much less friction. Sometimes I look at a kanji and think, “How am I reading this?” The meaning of the symbol is not immediately apparent. The mnemonic story has images from the radicals (constituent components that make up the total symbol) that are a kind of almost-nonsense. The symbol has nothing to do with the pronunciation of the word. But, somehow, putting it all together, a pictograph marries a pronunciation and I can read a word. Without the mnemonic, the same thing happens. The card just swirls around and keeps appearing and failing. If I make my own mnemonic, even a sloppy one helps get the job done.

That’s all to say that I would be totally swamped without it. And, I’m looking for any ways to improve it. At this point, a little lubrication in the wheels will save a lot of energy across the trip.

I’ll try to post updates periodically, especially as I develop my system. In the mean time, feel free to share you own lessons or tips here, or feel free to ask me any questions you have about my practice!

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I decided to start using decks that will help me engage with content as much as possible, over completing the “Top 1000” as soon as possible, for the reasons I mulled over in my previous post. Whenever I can, I’ll prioritize material that has more vocabulary that I already know, to minimize the vocabulary-building required to use the content.

For the moment, I started with some songs I’m familiar with from the FLCL soundtrack, from The Pillows, starting with “Ride on shooting star”, “Carnival”, and “Beautiful morning with you”.

For each of them, with the core 300ish words I “know” (according to jpdb, anyway), I have around 25% vocabulary coverage. I wish jpdb displayed the data a little differently to make it clear how many words/kanji I need to learn, rather than a percentage of the total, but at 20 cards-per-day, it looks like each one will take 2-3 days to complete. Also, around half of the new vocab learned are in the top 3000, which will help me continue to progress in core words, just half as fast.


(Caption: A screenshot of these three decks. Ride’s coverage is much higher since I studied it today.)

I thought a little about the kanji part of it. Since this is audio content, I could move a little faster by prioritizing the vocabulary and lagging the kanji. I’m not sure if jpdb supports that. They have a bunch of nice, fiddly settings that I could look into, but I didn’t want to break it. So, for now, it looks like Beautiful will be 55 cards, and Carnival will be 70. Eesh. Maybe more like 3-4 days each. The benefit of the kanji will be that I can read the lyrics so I can make sure my ears are hearing the right words, and so I can detangle grammar a little slower than the recording allows.

This is all an experiment. I’d love to hear any suggestions anyone has about this approach. In the end, if I build up some audio material that I’m familiar with, I can listen to them when I can’t actively study and get some passive immersion benefits. But, I’m also not sure how well song lyrics can inform conversational language acquisition. Like, will your English suffer by learning it from Taylor Swift? Probably not?

Honestly, I think you’re doing the right choice. What would be the point of learning a language if not to enjoy it?

You can always go back to a core vocab study later, if you think you’re really missing something.

But then I have the philosophy that “whatever is fun to you and keeps you motivated is the best method” (even if it’s not the most efficient)

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Love that. I’ve noticed I have a pretty high tolerance for delayed gratification, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t given up on projects that don’t pay out in proportion to the effort. At least with music, unlike stories or training text, I don’t need full comprehension to enjoy it.

I listened to the songs while working last night, and it was enough to be able to pick out words I knew every now and then.

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It’s been about a month and I’ve been thinking about a check in.

I’ve been working on the vocabulary on three songs since the last post:

  • The Pillows - Ride On Shooting Star
  • The Pillows - Beautiful Morning With You
  • NakamuraEmi - Don’t

As I mentioned before, it’s amazing how long it can take to mine a song without having the core words memorized. Each of these songs had about 1/2 of the new words in the Top 3000, and 1/2 were rarer. So, they still contributed to the Top 3000 progress, but at about 1/2 speed. I have a playlist of Japanese songs and mined a few of them. They are prioritized by the most percent coverage so I can do the easiest ones first.

As an aside, it’s kind of fun as a language nerd to see this analysis. Humbert Humbert is very spare, chill folk, which comes through in their common vocabulary and short word lists. The Pillows have a lot of common vocab, but like to throw in more colorful words, which, cool, now I know “shotgun” and “withdrawal symptoms” :joy: NakamuraEmi is more poppy, but has hip hop elements, so her vocab list is both a lot longer and more colorful.

My playlist is made up of songs that are enjoyable whether I know what they are saying or not, and I’ve been listening to it whenever I can while I work. My comprehension is slowly growing from a couple words, to bits of phrases throughout the songs. Lines are getting stuck in my head. I remember working out the chords of Beautiful Morning With You by ear in high school, and it only took a minute on the guitar to do it again. I definitely don’t just magically have total comprehension. I’ve spent some time reading the lyrics and learning the lines. This is the true kanji test, and highlights the grammar pieces I need to study up on.

Here is where I am with vocabulary by the numbers:

image

This weekend, I took the Germinadora N5 Vocabulary List and imported it into jpdb. I had been thinking about it for a while, and finally did it for a couple reasons. First, it is a handy list of words. Most of them are in my Top 3000 anyway, but it cuts out a lot of the fiddly little particles and conjunctions, and is just a strong list of useful words that I can use with the basic grammar structures I know. Second, I already have been exposed to most of the words through Duolingo. Yesterday, I just top-queued any word I knew and burned through them. Getting all of the vocab in one place will give me a better understanding of where I am with vocab, and will help me assess mining objectives more accurately. Third, it will get me the kanji for words that Duo is holding out on. I have 550 cards left on that N5 Vocabulary List, and I already know the word for a significant number of them, thanks to Duo, and just need to learn the kanji. So, it should go pretty quick. I’ll probably work another song or two into the mix as I do that list, but I think the list will help me use more simple expressions in my daily life to practice casually.

That leads to the last part, which is moving the vocabulary into practice. I read some Tadoku books last weekend and was really happy to see how much more I could follow than during my first attempts. Tadoku is meant to be read without vocab study, which I get, but it’s a lot more gratifying to take the vocab bits and see them in context with comprehension.

One possible next step is to find an online manga source that is formatted for mining, and start doing that. A lot of people attest to this being the thing that helped them turn the corner toward comprehension, and that they wished they had started mining much earlier, rather than finishing a Top 6000 deck first. I can believe it. If anyone has any suggestions, I’m open.

Oh, and last, last part: The PAO Mnemonic Table has been in my back pocket since I first posted about it. I often do vocab drills on walks, and pull it out when I need images for words. I can still attest to how well it works. Words I practice rote fail over and over, sometimes for days, before I hook them on something. When I use the pegs, I get it right away, or within a few tries, depending on how natural or contrived the image is. And then, later, I find that the image has faded, but the word is still there. I mark the word as “Hard” in jpdb if I struggle to remember, or need to employ the mnemonic to recall it, and finally succeed. I only mark “Okay” if it comes somewhat quickly and naturally, that way the card doesn’t get buried for so long in the SRS that it fades.

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Time for a little update! Here is where I am by the numbers:

image


Look at them li’l 5’s over dere, daaaaaaawwww :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: :melting_face:

I was pretty stoked to hit 700 words. I have mostly been working on that Germinadora N5 Vocabulary List, because it has a lot of useful words, and many I was already familiar with through Duolingo. I’m slowly starting to use vocabulary to say simple things in daily speech.

The really, really big boost came last night when I read through several Tadoku Level 0 readers, ones I had met with despair a few months ago, and mostly breezed through them. As in, I had enough words and grammar that anything I didn’t understand could be inferred through the images and context. It feels like this is the beginning of a shift toward reading and vocab mining. I spent the morning looking at ways to extract text from manga, and I found a method I would like to try. The next step is just to find a decent manga ebook. I have to wash my eyes out every time I browse Bookwalker, and when I went to a manga database site, the most popular categories that users had applied were 80% explicit content. I know that there are thoughtful, complex visual novels out there, but I don’t know enough to find it. Recommendations solicited!

Otherwise, I’m finally closing in on 90% coverage for the songs I mentioned in my last entry. I can hear the words, but need to do some more grammar study to figure out what is happening to them in many places. Same for Nihongo con Teppei: I can pick out subject words and bits and pieces, but a lot of what is happening in between is incomprehensible to me. But, at this point, I think it’s just a matter of more drills, more exposure, and more progress on grammar. It’s amazing how much learning a new verb conjugation opens up. I started using Renshuu mostly for grammar, which has given that to me. I bought Tae Kim’s ebook, but I haven’t opened it, yet.

My only other update, which is applicable to people in this forum is simply this:

Fear is the enemy of learning.

If I get caught up in my head about failure, and let the little monsters in my head beat me up over not remembering vocabulary, it takes forever to get through any card I struggle with, and I get exhausted with the drills pretty fast. It’s just not much fun. I’ve found that if I can self-coach as I’m reviewing, generally with a constant stream of verbal direction and affirmation, I can chew through vocab pretty fast, even if I’m failing cards, and I still end up learning the cards through review, and I still get to introduce plenty of new cards. When I tense up, I can’t think clearly and I feel the physical pain of anxiety, but when I relax and give myself permission to fail, it is much easier and more pleasant to learn.

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It’s been several months since I updated, and I’m nearing 250 days of learning, so I thought I’d give a brief update.

I’ve mostly stopped using my PAO system. I’m not sure if it’s laziness, or what, but the greatest gain I’ve seen in all of my techniques is simply the self-coaching method I mentioned above. I may not have the full retention benefits that a mnemonic device gives, but when I go on a walk and do drills, I can get in a mindset that lets me burn through cards quickly, and not get stuck on cycles of self-loathing that clutter my mind. “Fear is the mind-killer.” Frank Herbert knew what he was talking about.

Stats Update:

image

I about doubled my vocab/kanji since January, and my goal is to get to 2000 words in the next month. I’ve seen several people mention that this is where they were able to transition their study hours from drills to reading, since they were at n+1 for most sentences in basic books. I’ve already started reading more NHK News Web Easy articles, and I’m feeling more and more comfortable with that. (By “reading more”, I mean, I’ve read through a handful, and while I needed to work hard at looking things up, I wasn’t totally bewildered. I don’t want anyone to come through here and be like, woah, dude was cruising NHK’s at 200 days.) My goal is to scale that up.

I have dramatically slowed down my grammar studies, though, both because it’s harder to do on walks and in spare moments, and because I’m picking some things up through reading. I definitely need to study more verb conjugations, and grammar structures. I’m not sure what to say here other than that grinding vocab has become the easiest thing to fit in, and I’ve managed to squeeze as much dopamine out of it as a puzzle/memory game as possible, and I might need to shift my mindset to do the same for reading. When I successfully read something, it’s the highest of highs, and when I try to read something and run headlong into a wall of unknown kanji, it’s the lowest of lows. “Fear is the mind killer.” I just need a process to work through texts that taps into that same sense of challenge and accomplishment. I especially need to work on translations of the songs with vocab I’ve memorized! That stuff is primed, and I haven’t nearly tapped into the potential.

I crossed the threshold a couple months ago where I could start saying short, simple sentences to describe little things in my daily life. My family is indulgent, if not a little excited for the little bits of progress. I also crossed a decoding threshold with reading. Until about March, I could barely make heads or tails of jpdb’s example sentences, and then, it was like a switch, I just started being able to read a bunch of them. Just sort of wandered into the vocab/grammar until it happened? I don’t really know, but it has been thrilling to be able to read them, and nail translation word-for-word.

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Love this.

I also really dig doing mnemonics on walks.

Not sure why, but I definitely feel good about it.

Nice work! Things add up!

There is something about walking (and probably all physial exercise) that helps remembering better. I love to listen to podcasts (especially the ones with a questions-answers part) while walking.
I inadvertantly have one vocab word I mentally took note of popping up everytime I walk past the giant-blue-ball-thing at the playground. I didn’t mean to make a memory palace, but it’s the place I was when I noticed that word and thought that I should learn it, and now somehow it’s still there.

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