Fragmented Sleep and Memory

Interesting article:
Fragmented sleep ‘harms memory’

Broken sleep affects the ability to build memories, a study of mice suggests.

The Proceedings of the National Academy of Science findings could help explain memory problems linked to conditions including Alzheimer’s and sleep apnoea.

The Stanford University research found disrupting sleep made it harder for the animals to recognise familiar objects.

A UK sleep expert said the brain used deep sleep to evaluate the day’s events and decide what to keep.

Another article about the link between sleep and memory.

Your text to link…

The study found that this spindle-driven networking was most likely to happen during Stage 2 of non-Rapid Eye Movement (NREM) sleep, which occurs before we reach the deepest NREM sleep and the dream state known as Rapid Eye Movement (REM) sleep. This shallow stage of dreamless slumber can account for half our sleeping hours, and happens most frequently during the second half of the night, or in the latter part of a period in which we sleep.

On average, adults spend one-third of their lives sleeping. Yet, no scientific consensus has been reached on why humans need sleep, Walker said. Previous research led by Walker has shown that a good night’s rest helps us regulate our moods and cope with emotional challenges, while sleep deprivation can make otherwise reasonable people emotionally shaky, indicating a strong correlation between sleep loss and psychiatric disorders.

For this latest study, Walker and his team took 44 healthy young adults and subjected them to a rigorous memorizing task intended to tax the hippocampus. All participants performed at similar levels. The group was then divided, with one half taking a 90-minute nap while the other half stayed awake.

That evening, the entire group was subjected to another round of learning. The ability to memorize new information deteriorated for those who had remained awake throughout the day. In contrast, those who had napped not only performed better than the waking group, but actually improved their capability for learning, as if sleep had refreshed their memory capacity, the study found.

Good information.
I wish I had time to take naps. :slight_smile:

What do you guys think would be the optimum sleep schedule? I’m thinking of doing six hours and three hours evenly spaced, but I don’t know if six hours is enough sustained sleep or if the three hour block makes up for that.

I don’t know… I’m aiming for 8 hours per night, plus an occasional 20 minute nap.

Just like people don’t know how to use their memory (the need to link items to memorize to locations, for instance), people don’t realize that adrenalin and endorphins modify your need for sleep.

Supppose that at 11pm, after a hard day’s work, your totally exhausted, but suddenly, something extraordinary happens (something positive or negative). Your little boy is suddenly feeling very bad, has a strong belly ache, and must be driven to hospital.

Because you had an exhausting day and it is 11pm, will you not drive him to hospital, and once over there, will you not try to find a doctor, and try to do whatever is necessary until he is taken good care of ?

Now, this brings you to 1.00am when suddenly, the phone rings. You run a company and firemen are calling you because your company building is on fire. It is now 1.00 am. Will you tell them that you are too exhausted to go there an help them in to deal with the fire ?

So you go there and your mind will run at 110% to help them, tell them where to go, which doors to close to stifle the fire, …

It is now 3.00 am. and something else happens…

As you see, adrenalin will help you push the limits.

After a while, you will feel REALLY exhausted and you will need to sleep, but you don’t really need as much sleep as you think.

I try to make my life as interesting as possible, with as many important nice events as possible. When the pace is good, adrenalin keeps me awake and I find I need only 4 hours sleep per day to keep me going and deal with important things for a long time.

The solution to sleeping less is to make your life a succession of extraordinary events.

P.

Hi, do you have an idea how to fight with occasional fragmented sleep?
I awoke 3 times during this night, and I can’t concentrate well, and I’m yawning for all the day. It’s really annoying, because when I start yawning during the memory training, there’s suddenly a lot of tears in my eyes, I have to wipe it, but the biggest problem is a loss of concentration in that moment.

I eat a lot, because I do weight-lifting, so I need to have a rich meal for carbohydrates and proteins, so I don’t think my energy levels are low. And I don’t have a memory training in the same day as I have physical training.

I sleep 7-8 hours each night. And once I have a fragmented sleep, it ruins my all day. But it doesn’t happen too often, I must admit.

Thanks.

Remember that commitment to what you are doing is the secret to producing dopamin and adrenalin… and staying awake without yawning.

Maybe you consider that your memory training exercise is not a vital enough activity for you to use 110% of your attention on it…

Something else that can help staying awake: always work as if you were in a hurry. If you take your time, things will slow down, take ages. Your energy level will drop and this will get you to sleep.

If you start a 30mn exercise 20m before you must leave to catch a train, and if it is essential that the exercise be finished before you go (think of an application letter for a job that you absolutely need to post before catching the train), you will see that you will be much more efficient in doing your exercise.

It’s just like mnemonics: you must want to memorize something in order to remember it…

Could it be from too much exercise on some days? I think that can be a cause of bad sleep. It used to happen to me when I was training for a bicycle trip and pushed myself too hard.

Zaphod - what do you expect the long-term effects are of a lifestyle where you push yourself to this degree? Do you think you will suffer for it, or do you expect no ill-effect? I’m simply curious :slight_smile:

Ps for Josh: it took 10 seconds for my computer to upload this message.

Sorry about that. I will work on the website speed during the upgrade.

Definitely sounds like an interesting lifestyle approach - thanks for the reply. You mentioned your friend sleeps 4 hours a week - do you actually mean per week, or did you mistype “per day”? Thanks :slight_smile:

Oops. I misstyped… Should have said per day (or rather per night) of course… I’ll change it in the text above so that new readers don’t get confused.

P.

My best friend is currently 68 and also enjoys this lifestyle. We work together at nights, sometimes linked on skype to exchange ideas. He is at TOP scientific level in many different topics (biology, physics, mathematics, philosophy, economics, …) and we are currently working on the Human Physiome project (google it).
We are currently attending a kind of summer school in south of France, and yesterday evening, with PhD students and post-docs, we decided to go out for a beer, but unfortunately, the residential area where the summer school is taking place was closed with high walls and gates, and the code we were given to be able to open the gates didn’t work.

Paul (my friend) and I made fun climbing over the 12ft draw gate while the young students and post-docs were looking at us unbelievingly :wink: Finally, seeing that we did it, they painstakingly followed and we all went for a beer in a nearby café, and had a great time there. We came back to the hotel at 2.00 am and Paul and I went on working together on a project for a couple of hours.

All this to say that Paul is also in top physical condition. And he only sleeps 4 hours a night, but he is constantly in grand projects that require him and his expertise.

Where (I think) you understood that a succession of terrible events could make you go beyond what you think are your limits, the objective is to make your life so full of wonderful events that enjoying them keeps you awake until you really need to sleep.

Paul and I go to sleep when we absolutely need, and typically, we wake up naturally after around four hour’s sleep and are fresh to start over again. Interestingly enough, we don’t necessarily sleep at night: we can have a nap of several hours even in day time, which has some very nice side-effects: I recently flew to Japan and did not feel any jet-lag at all, in any direction (Westwards or Eastwards), as I sleep around 4 hours when I absolutely need it.

In my experience, most top notch people I know have this lifestyle. I have the privilege of exchanging ideas with a real Nobel Prize winner. He is more than 70 and is regularly working on some projects as late as 2 or 3 in the morning (but here, the word “working” is inappropriate, as what he is working on is so exciting and stirring: in fact, we enjoy work/life so much that we see sleep as a constraint that prevents us from enjoying work/life even more).

And of course, when he calls me using skype at 2 in the morning, even if my attention was a bit low when I hear skype ringing, my neurons are at full attention again to exchange ideas with him.

Many Nobel prize winners are still at top intellectual level well beyond 80yo. Now, whether they got their Nobel Prize thanks to their exceptional constitution or whether it is the excitement of their life that gave them an exceptional constitution could be discussed…

Unfortunately, as far as I’m concerned, I am lightyears away from these exceptional people.

And finally, to answer your question, even if our lifestyle shortens our life expectancy a bit (but again, this is not obvious), we will have done so many more exciting things in our lives compared with more standard people that I think it is worth it. To start with, getting to this top level is extremely difficult and requires immense amounts of energy, but after a certain point, you get enthralled and pushed by the projects that took you so much energy to put together.

P.

Do you think that some people are just naturally able to go with only four hours of sleep? I’ve heard stories about it, but have never been able to feel well with fewer than eight hours of sleep. I can work all day and all night, and sleep in the morning for a bit, but I end up feeling pretty bad after a while.

This studies have also discouraged me from trying:

http://bakadesuyo.com/2012/07/14/can-missing-an-hour-of-sleep-take-points-off-your-iq/

Could the ability to sleep less be related to genetics, age, or a high tolerance for exhaustion – or is it just good sleeping technique? :slight_smile:

My own experience makes me think that most people can do it (although it is obvious that we all are different and some will need more sleep than others, of course). What makes me think that most people can do it is that right after I graduated, before I found a PhD grant, I went to work for a while for a company and suddenly, life became dull. Within a couple of months, I found myself set in an everyday routine, where I woke up at 7 to get to work at around 8.30, had lunch at around 12.30 with a coffee break at 10.30, then resumed work at around 1.30pm until 5 or 6 or even 6.30pm, by which time I was quite tired, and started to go back home using public transportation, arrived there between 7.00 and 8.00 pm, then had dinner, watched TV a bit, and was totally knackered at 11.00pm.

After several months of this routine, I remember it was absolutely impossible for me to stay awake after 11pm. There was nothing I could do to keep my eyes open and I was barely 25 or 26. I also remember clearly thinking that spending whole nights in front of my computer was something I was certainly too old to do again, like what I was doing when I was younger, (i.e. between 14 and 22). I really thought must suddently have gotten old and that sleepless nights were behind me.

Then, after about 2 years of a dull life when I literally dropped asleep at 11.00 pm to wake up at 7.00 am (therefore thinking that I absolutely needed 8 hours of sleep), I managed to get a PhD grant and life rapidly became interesting again, and now that after many years, I am in a position where I get to drive some wonderful projects, everyday life is so exciting that I do well with only 4 hours per night.

My analysis is that it is not sleeping techniques that got me there, but managing to find exciting things to do, and being solicited by many people who count on me to get somewhere. Whenever my daily level of excitement drops (in between deadlines, or during vacations), I return to sleeping 8 hours (or sometimes even more !).

I think that if I landed on a desert island without a pen and a piece of paper or a book and no way to do anything, I would get bored to death and would sleep 12 hours a day (provided I could find enough to eat in the 12 hours I was awake).

As for the tests, there are many statements in this forum that say that scientists who specialise on memory have no idea about what memory techniques can make you achieve. I think this is the same for sleep tests: if you perform tests on people who live a dull life, you will get results that show that their life quality will deteriorate if they are forced to sleep 4 hours only. Sleep deprivation on people taken at random in the street could be assimilated to torture. Now, on the contrary, perform those tests on people whose life is full of excitement and I’m ready to bet quite a lot that results will be different.

To end on this, there are periodically some TV broadcasts on Medical Practitioners at hospitals emergency departments. All these footages show that (in France at least) the standard day of an emergency MP will last for at least 24 hours of uninterrupted work (they periodically have coffee breaks) and sometimes, to replace colleagues on vacation, they can stay up and taking care of patients for as much as 48 hours in a row or even more…

And I don’t think they are selected on their ability to not sleep. I think that they are ordinary people who (by interest or by necessity) ended up working in an emergency department with such working hours, and that they can cope with this rhythm because on busy days, as soon as they have finished with someone bleeding to death after a car crash, they have to deal with a heart attack, then someone with food poisoning, or who just tried to commit suicide, then, … and this goes on for 24 or 48 hours…

Hundreds of such medics can do it, so I firmly believe that it is your lifestyle that determines how many hours you need to sleep (with occasional variations between people, of course, and a minimum number of hours below which you simply cannot go on for a long time, but in my experience, this is much much lower than what you would think).

In my case, I am fine with 4 hours of sleep per night for sustained (interesting and exciting) activity over several weeks/months, and for exceptional deadlines, I can go down to 1 or 2 hours per night, but this will strain me if I do this more than a few days. Sometimes, I will work all night through before a very important presentation (for a conference where I will talk in front of possibly several hundred people). I find that not sleeping will slow me down and allow me to do a better presentation, because I will be more focussed on what I say and because I am slower, I talk more clearly for the audience. When this happens, I nevertheless try to sleep at least 30 minutes or 45 minutes, and so that I have psychologically slept for one night, I go through a complete routine, with brushing teeth, getting undressed, sleeping in a bed in a dark bedroom, then waking up 30 or 45 minutes later as if I had slept a whole night. Finally, I find that even a short shower will wash tiredness off me. If I have 1 hour left, I will rather go through a full routine including a 10-15mn shower (= ~35mn sleep) rather than lying unconfortably on a sofa for 1 hour. After a 1 hour complete routine with 10-15mn shower, I will be fresh again and ready for a new day, and I can do this for up to 3 or 4 days, but after this, I will need maybe 8 hours sleep to recover, or a couple of days at 5 or 6 hours sleep.

Btw, remember that tiredness is not cumulative: if you only sleep for 2 hours for 4 days and you believe you need 8 hours per night, don’t think you will need to sleep an extra 24 hours because you missed this amount of sleep. Your sleep deficit will cancel in one good night’s sleep (whatever it means for you).

In my experience, you should be able to easily go down to 6 (or even 4 hours), provided you can make your life more exciting… To me, 8 hours is what you need if you are in a life routine that may be full, but dull.
Try getting involved in more social activities where people depend on you (becoming president of a couple of societies, get invited here or there to make speeches on memory or music, or…) In my experience, you will see that you can cram into your life many more things than you thought you could).

P.

I definitely have seen some examples of people living with a routine of 4 hours of sleep. My dad used to do this when he was obsessed with his work, but he did drink a lot of coffee. Do coffee or other stimulants affect your ability to do this?

It is 3.48am here in France and as a demonstration of what I say, I’m still live and kicking, even though I have an important meeting tomorrow at 9 :wink:

Yes indeed, I am never against a good cup of coffee. As I said, stimulation replaces sleep, and coffee helps here.

If I am totally knackered (slept less than 2 hours for a couple of days) and have an important meeting, I will take a French “Guronsan” (cf. Glucuronamide/acide ascorbique/caféine — Wikipédia ). The tablets contain 500mg C vitamin, 50 mg caffeine (equvalent of an expresso) but it is not for these stimulating contents that I would take the tablet, but specifically for the glucoronamides (Glucuronamide — Wikipédia ) that are a form of glucose that associates to toxins in the organism and takes them to the liver for what is called in French “hepatic clearance” (Clairance hépatique — Wikipédia ).

In a few words, glucoronamides help clear your organism from toxins, and therefore will get you running for longer with a clear mind.

I ALWAYS take a Guronsan whenever I drive for more than 1.30 hours, to prevent sleepiness, and even more so if I drive after having had lunch or dinner.

Without a Guronsan, I have verified that in more than 50% of the cases, I will feel sleepy after driving for 1.30 hours (this is for me). If I take a Guronsan, I will drive for hours without feeling any drowsiness, with all my senses at peak performance. It works really well for me. The effects are very subtle: a Guronsan will not get you excited (500 mg of C vitamin and 50mg of caffeine have too small an effect for this), but will keep you going forever, without feeling tired (my record after a Guronsan is an 8 hours drive with only one stop for refuel (and a pee), all feeling perfectly alert and a safe driver. Your mileage may vary, as drug effects can be different among people.)

Guronsan should be prescribed to anyone driving for more than 2 hours. This would prevent hundreds of accidents due to drowsiness/sleepiness.

It is a rather mild drug, with virtually no adverse effect other than 500mg of C vitamin and the equivalent of an expresso (the tablets also contain sodium, for a fizzy effect, so people on a sodium-free diet should know about this and people into sports should know that the tablet will be considered as a doping drug by the French system because of its caffeine contents). It is typically prescribed for depressed/tired people, who should take 2 tablets a day for 2 weeks.

So taking a tablet once in a while as I do for either a long drive or an important meeting/conference is absolutely harmless (this is my experience anyway, and for what it’s worth, I must take a Guronsan once every other week, when circumstances such as the ones described above show up).

Hope it helped (and hope it can prevent someone on this forum from having a car accident due to drowsiness).

Pierre

Ps: Ok, it is 4.25 am now. I need to sleep for a few hours, not because I am tired, but because I have a full day tomorrow, and I need to wake up at 7.30. This will be 3 hours’ sleep, but because I am not on deadlines, it will be fine for me. I may take a one hour nap during the day. This helps a lot too.

Thanks… I’ll keep your post in mind for the next time things get like that.

I’m not sure if my life is exciting or boring… it’s a bit strange and paradoxical. :slight_smile: