Double encodeing question with periodic table example

General Memory Chat
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Hi All,

In different books Dominic O’Brian gives different instructions on how to memorize the table of the elements. In “How to develop a brilliant memory” he suggests walking through a palace and putting an element at each loci in order, this was to give a quick link to the atomic number.

In another book he suggests organizing it by group, so that each group is in the same room. He also suggests imagining a color tint or wall paper per room. E.g. group IV has C, Se, Ge, Sn, Pb, Fl. This second way seems useful for how chemists use the table.

I already have a MP will my PAO characters, so this it would be super easy to do the first method.

My questions are

  1. How do you guys go about indexing and retrieval issues like this?
  2. Would you suggest "re"-memorizing the table with the second method as well in another MP?
  3. It I wanted to add atomic weights should I (A) plan more loci, (B) put more images on same loci or (C) make a link-story from the first item at that loci? What is best?
  4. Generally, how do you guys elaborate on and add more detail to images with MoL? Do you just add like a little movie scene (more actions) to each image at it's loci?

Thanks!
moo

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How do I save the periodic table, okay, chemical element codes, specifically
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I have done the periodic table using the same memory palace as other data. It is working a treat. I have taught this in schools as well.

When I reach an element in Group 18, the Noble gasses, I bow out of respect for their nobility. This makes it easy to get to the Group of any element in 16 or 17 by going backwards, or Groups 1, 2, 3 or 4 by going forwards from the nearest Noble. At a Group 13 element (the Unluckies), I cross my index fingers to scare off the bad luck of 13. That gives me 14 and 15 easily as well. It is really quick to scan the memory palace for the Nobles and Unluckies. When I want to know where an element sits in the table, I just find the nearest Noble or Unlucky.

When I hit the transition metals, I fold my arms through that section. These simple actions stick really well.

The LAnthanides I sing, LA, LA, LA, so if an element is in the song, then it is a Lanthanide. So they are in the memory palace to add all the extra stuff, but they are also in the song. That makes it really easy to remember them, as well - I am not sure if the song helps remember the locations or the other way around - more of a feedback loop, I think.

The ACTinides form a one ACT play. So they are in the memory palace and in the play. The play starts with Thor contacting a Prostitute who is carrying a Uranium bomb … and it goes on from there!

I have the Periodic table in a normal memory palace, but these additions provide the layout or the Periodic Table as well as the properties. The Atomic numbers are easy, and the locations allow any further data to be added using the usual methods of story and images. It depends on the location and information how I attach from then on.

Hope that makes sense!

Lynne

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It all comes down to how many images you can place in a location without losing any images. I used one location for an element then just stacked the information. For knowing the different groups and such, you can just tag a location with an image that represents the specific info. If you memorize the order of the elements, you don;t really have any idea where the groups are or anything so you need to tag the locations or have an image in the locations that represent the info.

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Dr. Kelly you are quite the inspiration. I am going to give the periodic table of elements a shot and try to memorize it as well. Thank you for all your posts!

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Hi Lynne,

I like adding in the physical motions. Back when I was a chemistry tutor (and before I knew about memory) I used to have people move their hands & arms about (kind of like a cheer) to learn the functional groups. Two arms overhead → carbonyl group. If followed by “t-rexing” the left arm → aldehyde.

When you add multiple items to the same palace, do you just focus on one context or visualize all the contexts every time? Eg, in my case, I have my PAO numbers in the palace. Do I ignore them and just add element imagery or do I visualize both the PAO scene AND the element at the same time?

Thanks!
P.S. I just read your book! So great! Who knew we’re all “iloral” :slight_smile:

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Thanks, Mnemon!

Hi Moo. Thank you for saying lovely things about The Memory Code.

I use some physical movements, but the more I think about your comment, the more I want to do it with more gusto. Your movements sound great.

With multiple items in a single location, I don’t seem to need to decide on focus. My brain just does it. I don’t think about what is already there, but my brain will sometimes decide to link to them if a natural link suggests itself. I never find the crowded locations an issue. I have probably quoted this before on this forum, but I love it so I’ll do it again. Augustine of Hippo (later Saint Augustine), born in 354 AD, described using memory palaces and retrieving information from crowded locations:

And I come to the fields and spacious palaces of my memory, where are the treasures of innumerable images, brought into it from things of all sorts perceived by the senses. … When I enter there, I require what I will to be brought forth, and something instantly comes; others must be longer sought after, which are fetched, as it were, out of some inner receptacle; others rush out in troops, and while one thing is desired and required, they start forth, as who should say, “Is it perchance I?” These I drive away with the hand of my heart, from the face of my remembrance; until what I wish for be unveiled, and appear in sight, out of its secret place. Other things come up readily, in unbroken order, as they are called for; those in front making way for the following; and as they make way, they are hidden from sight, ready to come when I will. All which takes place when I repeat a thing by heart.

Oh, to be able to write like that!

Lynne

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Hi Lynne, would you mind if I can clarify something in your process, as I am currently learning the basic periodic table elements in atomic number sequence. But I’m using a simple story/linking method, which eventually I’ll couple with – once finished – a 00-99 P.A. system to assign numbers for atomic mass, etc.

– When you say you use a Memory Palace, are you using the locations for only sequence, for groupings, or for actual numbering too? I.e. would location 1,2,3 be atomic numbers 1,2,3 (and if so, do your locations have the numbers memorised inherently, or do you add the numbers with another trigger image?), or, are the locations/rooms in the MP used for the different ways to group elements e.g. f-blocks, etc?

Thanks!

EDIT: To clarify, currently the way I do it in a Story/Link method is this: e.g. Lanthanum/lanthanides. A panther with a LAN cable around its neck is Lanthanum. In the main story, it sits between Barium and Hafnium (that’s how its shown on my printed periodic table). But the panther runs out the door somewhere, to a new imaginary place. I can carry on the main story, or, like editing a movie, I can instead follow the panther to the Lanthanides starting with Cerium etc. Now, when I get to Lutetium, the Lutist is playing the Hobbit tune which is my “portal” to go back to the Bar scene (Barium) where the Panther (Lanthanum) and Halfling/Hobbit with a bad knee (Hafnium) are still hanging out, and from there I can follow the Hafnium Hobbit around to continue the sequence Tantalum etc…

Now, what I’ve started doing is adding numbers to remember not just sequence, but so if someone asks me out of sequence e.g. what number Neon is, I know it’s 10 (without having to go through the Story) because Neon = John Mayer strumming the song Neon on a TENnis racket.

THEN, I was thinking of doing what I think you are suggesting for e.g. groups like Actinides. When I see an actinide (especially out of atomic number sequence!) I make sure I snap my clapperboard (“Aaaand action!”) totem to remember that this is an ACT in my movie, i.e. an actinide. I hope to add any number of groupings/data to each scene/character this way, AND hope that I can fly around using these totems easily e.g. I can group up all the actinides by recalling every scene with the snapping clapperboard!

Is this something you use or recommend using or not using for the elements? I don’t see any advantage (yet) to me switching to a memory palace of e.g. my home. It feels like, when I use the Story/Linking method, I naturally create a sort of weird vague ‘palace’ anyway where the scenes occur, and then I can have interactions or make portals that fly me from one spot to another. I feel like adding another layer of first remembering that e.g. my driveway is #1 and my front door is #2 etc is firstly too restrictive should the story change, and secondly, yet another superfluous memory layer when I can just add numbers later anyway (i.e. story = sequence/character, but later characters/objects = numbers & data).

Very curious what you think.

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Hi Thinlyspread,

What an old thread! Thank you for the memories. I have written four books since The Memory Code, including Memory Craft which gives much more detail on the practicalities of the memory methods.

My Periodic Table is in my main palace which has five different sets of data encoded. As for the numbers, they are built into the palace. Exactly as you predict, the locations represent the atomic number. Any more details for the element are encoded into the stories at each location.

This palace is strictly laid out with markers for every tenth location, and different markers within for every fifth location. So I can get the atomic number really quickly by just checking which is the nearest fifth or tenth location.

All my memory palaces are structured this way, as recommended by the ancient Greeks. I have about 10 km of memory palaces now. Half of that distance is for Chinese vocabulary. I love memory palaces!

The Periodic Table palace just goes around the house and garden.

I hope that helps!

Lynne

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Thanks Lynne – just realised this was an old thread, oops! :confused:

It’s interesting that you’re using the MP not just for sequence but numbering. I must have made a mistake in confusing different systems when I started this whole thing.

I’m not sure how to proceed, since I am already much of the way through trying something like a hybrid Dominic and P/O method i.e. associating 99 unique characters (and in my case, also images/animals) plus an object/dress with 00-99 (but I do not use initials for all like in Dominic, I just associate whatever I like with a digit, e.g. 88 is Doc driving a Delorean simply because he does 88 mph to time travel in the movie Back to the Future).

I’m worried that if I add strict numbering to locations inside a MP as well, it might end up being too confusing? Since for every digit 00-99 I’d then end up with (1) Character (2) Object and (3) Location in my MP. For example, 88 would end up being (1) Doc (2) Delorean and (3) …erm… let’s say, my back garden’s gate, or pond, or whatever!

Do you ONLY use MP locations for numberings? Or do you also use a Peg, Dominic or Major type system as well? Are they compatible or mutually exclusive? Is one or the other more effective?

I suppose the advantage would be e.g. a periodic table element could be in a MP position for 22 (e.g. to represent atomic number) but then also you can mix a character from the Major or P/O system for adding e.g. mass, or whatever. So long strongs of numbers could be in just location.

I find that whenever I use the Story/Link method, like I’ve started with the periodic table, I create a new sort of Memory Palace anyway; it’s always taking place “somewhere” like an imaginary mansion, or outdoors, in space, etc.

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This is interesting, since now I’m imaging each room as e.g. 0-9, 10-19, etc (the tens, the twenties, and so on), then one could just use a very simple 0-9 peg system like 1 sun 2 shoe etc and just add together the room e.g. twenties room, to the peg inside it, e.g. shoe, to get 22. But then I suppose there’s no real advantage, since it’s easier just to have 10 locations inside each room and skip the peg image entirely?

I think I am overthinking this. :smile:

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This has all reminded me to get on to listening to an audiobook version of Memory Craft. The key to unlocking the potential for me is layering, so hopefully I’ll get a better understanding of how to apply it.
(I think I get lost in the hierarchy of the individual memory stories I’ve created.

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I have my Dominic System characters in the memory palace. I suspect I would find it confusing otherwise, but they sort of ended up there by themselves. I do use the initials, but not the same initials as Dominic.

I have the periodic table, the countries of the world, 20th Century history and the Dominic system in that palace, and I use it for memory competitions. 20th Century dates 1901…1999. I stick 1900 at the start and continue afterwards.

I don’t get confused, and sometimes the different data sets blend at a location and help each other. It all just works now that I relax and let my brain do whatever comes to mind.

Hope that helps!

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I don’t use the peg system much at all - I just use memory palaces galore because they work so much better.

I do use a peg system for keeping bird lists when we are out birding, to save writing them down in the field when we’d rather watch the birds. But that’s not numbers. It is a bestiary of animals for the 26 letters of the alphabet. They are much easier to associate than sun, shoe, tree because they have personality. Plus it gives me 26 pegs. If we get more than 26 birds I just start again at A, because it works.

Lynne

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I layer and layer and layer! My palaces are so precious and familiar now.

Have fun!

Lynne

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So do you reuse the same journeys/locations for different sets of information? E.g. if I set locations in my house (my real house) I don’t want to always use e.g. the garden = 11, if for example, I just want to reuse the garden as part of a sequence for some other data.

E.g. I already have elves for eleven. Sure, the elves can be in the garden too, but what’s the point if I already set 11 as the garden? It seems redundant. I suppose I could just ignore it; I just worry I’ll accidentally think 11 if I add numbers back into that story later but e.g. this time the garden has nothing to do with 11.

I guess I’m trying to get my head around the trade-offs between numbers as characters, locations in a real and/or imaginary mind palace, or peg systems, etc.

It sounds like you’ve developed a really nice hybrid idea where you can add numbers ‘on the fly’ every key milestone e.g. 5 or 10 steps in a sequence, then count fwd/back to any given number as and when needed. I really like this approach as it feels more fluid and less cluttered.

E.g. for periodic elements instead of adding another character for every single scene in my link/story (which already has characters/items for the elements), I could just remember some key numbers in a vignette like, say, 80 (The A-Team) + Mercury (a giant thermometer), then when I need e.g. Platinum, I can just recal the story/links, and count back two steps from that.

I am still not 100% convinced that “real” places for mind palaces (e.g. my house, street, etc) and journeys within them are more effective than completely imaginary landscapes. Whenever I use the link/story method, it seems to create an imaginary world anyway I can zoom in and out of. But I think I’ll give your suggestions a go and compare results over time. It’s nice to get out and walk.

Thanks again Lynne!

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It isn’t a trade off. They reinforce each other. Memory palaces can act as peg systems. So location 5 (05) for me is Brazil, Boron, OS=Oliver Sacks and the year 1905. Plus I use that palace for words on Memory League.

That location started as Brazil. Being a 5th position is it s window, (doors are 10th positions). I can ‘see’ the Carnival in Rio out the window. I can also see a very boring man (Boron) coming out of the colourful crowd and telling me that Rio isn’t the capital. It’s Brasilia. In 1905 was Einstein’s theory of Relativity. The boring man isn’t that interested in Relativity. Oliver Sacks is - his book Musicophilia gives him a link to music. So we have the music of the spheres happening as well as relativity. Each location becomes a rich tapestry full of hooks.

But my brain is perfectly capable of extracting exactly what it needs at any given time. It doesn’t mix things up. If I want a chemical element, it doesn’t return Oliver Sacks. Adding new data is so easy because I have characters there as well as all sorts of things going on. Trust your brain! The stories just become wilder and wilder!

Lynne

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I can’t use imaginary worlds because I have aphantasia, so no visual images. If your brain does imaginary ones, that’s what you should go with. I adapted my ideas early on from sticking to other people’s rules, and changed a lot as I learned to relax with it. You can’t match someone else who is ‘right’ or ‘better’ because you aren’t thinking with their brain.

Lynne

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Thanks Lynne, that’s great.

I was sipping tea and almost spat it out laughing at the story of the boring Boron man! My totem is a boar, not a bore! I love hearing about people’s mind spaces.

I’ll keep going with my imaginary landscape but eventually I’ll try to overlay it on top of a “real world” MP once I’ve set it up at my new house/street.

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Have fun!

Lynne

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Was thinking about how’d I go about this myself. If I set up quirky characters for each element, and then in order to recall ‘groups’, I imagine a concert where the groups are called upon to come on stage and perform consecutively.

Similarly I imagined a ‘rowing’ race up the river where each team is interacting like a Peg system in their boats.
Is this a weird way to go about it?
Can random loci be ‘called’ upon to temporarily assemble out of order.

I’ve wondered about retroactively associating common traits between an established series of loci. But maybe that’s messy… what do you all think?