Hi Vonde,
I too have been breaking down the deck in a bid to practice the loci merging! Did 17 cards in 26 seconds and a 1 minute recall, which was quite good.
I do think that this helps…
If you switch 4 cards in your recall, so that 8 cards are not at the right place, do you count it as 4 or 8 errors?
People do seem to think its geeky. Not sure why. I actually resent Foer to some degree for comments he made repeatedly in his book, such as saying that he would lie to people about why he was living in his mothers basement because what he was doing down there was embarrassing, if not “downright shameful.” Shameful? Though he did reveal his self image to be particularly prone to bruising based on the opinions of others by removing his memory helmet before the last event out of fear that someone who knew him might see him :/. To thine own self be true!
Anyway, I haven’t had much time to practice either, Wes. You’re still miles ahead. Or kilometers, whatever.
I’m really impressed that you have not let me pass you even though I was only 45 or so seconds behind you when you contacted me weeks ago, and obviously the amount you can improve really diminishes as you get faster, so hats off to you.
And Huggy, you’re doing awesome; great to see it.
Now let me ask you guys, and I apologize if I have already asked this but I’ve been thinking about it for a while:
When you go mem a deck, do you read the three cards and the. Make the image or visualize the P, then A, then O, without losing sight of the image along the way, in a process of continuous revision? The latter is doubtless more efficient, and I’ve been working on this for weeks, but every time I just read the image and then visualize it, it is still much faster. The process of visualizing simultaneously slows down my ability to decode the cards. It’s disappointing, I thought by now it would have improved my speed, but it’s still slower that way.
So I’m ditching that approach for now. Instead what I will be working on, until I’m convinced its a dead end, is learning to see each group of three cards as the image. It’ll be really slow-going for a while, but every time I see a group of three cards, I want to logically understand why it represents the image as a whole. Patterns will eventually emerge but I don’t know how long that will take.
Today I’ve been memorizing my decks 2 at a time. Recall is fine because I’m really taking my sweet time. The hope is that I’ll learn a little more about what makes sticky images sticky. I’ve gotten fast because that’s all I’ve focused on. There’s only so much faster I can get at forming images before it is the quality of the image that holds me back. I’ll let you know if I time some individual decks or do something interesting or impressive.
Hey guys,
DH, I despited Foer for saying that it was lame and nerdy. I personally think all things nerdy are things that do help more then all things normal people like. I really wanted him to be more supportive of his own obsession but maybe it was just after he wrote it that he started to see the little things that were a bit strange.
That being said. HELP!!!
I have hit hard bottom. I can’t go any deeper or so it seems. I’ve been practicing to break that sweet 1 minute mark for days now mostly by trying to read the cards as quickly as possible, but there seems to be a problem.
I’m not getting any better.
Right now, I can read a deck of cards in 49 seconds but it doesn’t matter if I have a fast run or a slow run. It stays at that exact time for at least four decks in a row. Sometimes here’s a slow timing and at that point I am about 7 seconds slower but it is a huge problem.
I take 50 seconds to read the cards and then another 15 to link them together into a story which goes into the loci. But if I can’t progress anything on the reading cards, I can’t progress at all because it’s just a big chunk of my total timing.
So, that all is the problem. I can’t visualize the cards any faster then I am doing right now and thus I can’t become any faster on memorizing a deck of cards.
It’s quite depressing to hit that plateau when you are so close to the one minute mark but yes, please help me with tips or something. I’ve already been thinking about changing my 3’s 9’s and 2 of my 10’s. Maybe I can do that.
Great thanks to the person who will give me the golden tip on how to beat DH to the 1 minute haha.
I wish I could be of more help, but I’m not improving noticeably either right now, and am still not quite as quick as you are. Can you tell me how you link the images together into a story when the actions are all predetermined? I still don’t understand how others do that very well, but I think I need to. Other than that, I’ll tell you my personal strategy is getting to know all my person/action pairs for immediate recognition. That’s a project though, and it probably won’t help my time out much any time soon.
Well, since you need faster image-making speed, what are your thoughts on the question I posed earlier, “do you read three cards and then make a picture, or adjust the picture along the way?” If you could build the pic along the way it would be very fast…but I know that is difficult.
I do have one more idea. Dunno if it’s a good one, but I’m working on it myself. Try spreading three cards and first noticing the middl ACTION card. If you can make a habit of this, then eventually you will learn to see the cards before and after it as variants of that action, (I think) which is a more connected and thus more immediate way to read the cards. But like I said that’s just one idea that seems good to me, I wouldn’t know.
Thanks DH.
With regards to your question, I just tend to forge the cards as I read the cards from left to right, so I see the Person first, then imagine them doing the action, before finally inserting the object.
I have to admit that I have not been putting myself out of my comfort zone or even attempting to beat my 2:21 (pefect recall) for the past week! Instead, I have been working on solidifying scenarios to make them more sticky and it is working.
The reason for this is that I had a few runs where I pushed close to the 2 minute barrier but as a result, experienced about 2 or 3 blank loci! I did manage 51 cards (1 error) at a time of 2:08, but the recall was horrendous! Since working a bit more on the visualisation, I have managed to get regular sub 3 minute times, but with easy, faultless recalls in like a minute!
So the plan is to do this for a while longer, then revert back to pushing myself again at pace to see if the images are stronger…
I think that’s a good idea. You’ll be glad you know how to form solid pictures when you become extremely fast. And when you can do something well, you tend to get faster naturally anyway. I’m doing the same thing. Also did about 20 decks 52/52 yesterday. Got a time of under 2:30 once but don’t remember. Then focusing on PA. I see these as more basic skills that I shouldn’t have ignored.
I actually tend to read the 3 cards and THEN put it together to an image. Im not placing the P at the locus first, and then add A and O.
Think I’m gonna use the same approach for a while, Huggy. I’ve done 5-10 decks every second day, with “off days” in between, trying to push the speed. Did a few decks under 2 min, but with a lot of errors… And it’s almost certain that I can’t recall the first scenarios in the journey, which really bothers me.
DH, I always made the images up as I went along the way. I just took the person of the first card, the action of the second and then the object of the third.
I have been training on not saying the things I see out loud or even in my head and it’s going fantastic. I still feel like I should say the cards in my head but to avoid that. I just hum this passage of Canto Ostinato (which is a classical music piece) and then I try to imagine the cards as the notes go. It’s strange but it works and even though there are still a lot of blanks. I can now flip through a deck of cards in 23 seconds and I can register and visualize about half of the cards. Every deck is going both faster and better.
To answer DH’s question: when I go through a deck I usually focus on the first two cards at the same time, visualizing the P doing the A at the locus, then I add the O, which I always try to integrate into the A; that’s why I’ve maximized the number of transitive verbs in my list, so it’s easier to somehow connect the O with the A.
I’ve been practicing reluctantly for the past week, convinced I hit a wall and almost ready to give up the 1.00 aim. My record of 1.16 a week ago was a bit of lucky shot I guess, since after that a only went under 1.25 a couple of times. But I got motivated by Wessells statement above that he can go through a deck in 23 seconds, albeit with lots of errors. Curious to see how fast I could do it I picked up a deck during half time of Holland – Italy. I wanted to go through the deck as fast as I could, allowing myself to make lots of mistakes. The first time I did it in 1.17 but I had quite a few blanks and I wasn’t really motivated to try and fill them by going through the deck in my mind. The second time I clocked 1.12 and when I walked through my journey in reverse - as I always do - I only encountered one complete blank and two loci where I couldn’t immediately see the A or the O. I recalling I found those missing links very quickly by browsing the images in my mind, so that’s 4 seconds closer to the holy geeky grail 
I guess what was different in these runs was that my intention was not to memorize a deck perfectly in a very fast time, but rather to go through the deck as quickly as possible without being bothered with making mistakes.
I too have been working on eliminating subvocalization. My first step was to refer to all actions and objects by their first syllable. Counting in your head and humming are the most popular ways of eliminating subvocalization. Note that it is impossible (so it is currently understood) to eliminate it entirely, so a good goal might be to allow yourself to subvocalize just part of each action, or person, per image, if you find you can’t eliminate it entirely. I have also been recalling decks by writing them back out, left to right. If you can write in a language, you can read it better. But now I will focus more on subvocalization removal; I knew from the start it was important but I think I avoided it for a while since I find it so difficult.
New times:-
Perfect recall - 2:12 (Old 2:21)
With errors - 1:57 (Old 2:08) 
Vonde, something you might want to try is memorizing 36 or so cards at a time. How ever many you can do guaranteeing (90% of the time) that you won’t have any blank loci at the speed you are doing it. When you find out how many cards that is, always stretch it by just 1 loci. Your speed will still progress if you are practicing PAO anyway, but this way you will also train your mind to remember all of the images by progressing in small steps. You aren’t losing anything by not memorizing a full deck at a time. In fact, I think this is a better way for beginners to learn PAO (not talking about you). One suit at a time, until all can be memorized with mastery. I wish I had done this instead. The key to progress is to be challenged with a task hard enough that you can only do it sometimes. But if you can’t do it EVER, shrink the task and build it back up over time. I noticed you were doing 18 at a time. Did you feel you made progress at that time? +1 on transitive verbs. I wish I had thought of that before making my cards up. Maybe before I start memorizing the 2702 PA’s I should change all my actions to transitive. That would make awesome PA’s. I have started “panning” (like a camera) with some verbs (e.g. "surfing upon) or going slow motion with others (e.g., smashing with sledgehammer) to make up for this. God that’s a good idea. Damn. What a good idea. It’s so tempting to change some 45 of my cards now.
What a breakthrough Wes, finding an extra skill to work on and doing well to boot. Please explain what you mean by “imagining the images as the notes go.” Though if that means anything like what I think it does then it’ll be pretty hard to explain. I notice that when I listen to music as I memorize, all the characters automatically bob their heads and dance along, but I don’t practice it because I know music will not be available when it really counts. So I’ve been practicing the Subv for a few hours now and it is NOT going well so far. If I don’t say it, then the vast majority of the time I can’t recognize the card. It just means I don’t know them as well as I thought, which is a good thing. Still no improvement on memorization time. I’ve possibly succeeded at under 1:20 once or twice if I would have used a second deck to recall, but I memorize a LOT of decks so that’s far from average. But I haven’t had perfect recall under 1:30. I was zooming along at first, and it’s disheartening that I don’t seem to have improved at all in about 10 days.
Still don’t think anyone has explained how to link an image to a locus when the action is forced. Maybe my posts are too long to read in their entirety, but I have asked this a couple of times. Let us say Wilma punts a padlock on my kitchen table (a locus). What might you do there? Do you transform some ‘real’ objects (making the whole table into a giant padlock and then having her kick that?
One more suggestion to experiment with if you would like. For cartoon characters or animals, try imagining a person in the relevant costume. Then it becomes “real” and potentially easier to visualize for some people.
Oh, one more exercise that I know is smart but also do very rarely because it is so difficult, and sorry if I have already mentioned this, is holding one PAO in my mind’s eye as I construct the next. I probably don’t do this because I can’t even do ONE PAO without it
Flickering momentarily out of existence while I read the O. So I guess I shouldmaster that first. But my intuition tells me holding 2 loci in place at once is an invaluable skill.
Edit: just thought I’d throw in here that I just tried a 100 random-word list in 15 minutes (an American event) and missed #s 21,91, and 93. The way the event works is oral recall in turn, so if you blank on a loci, you are safe if it isn’t your turn. Last year, all competitors were eliminated before #80! But that’s just one event.
Nice one Huggy!
We are pretty close now.
To each other and also to 2 minutes.
I got a new time today. Which is the first time in about 2 weeks.
2:01.5 (Old time 2:06).
So, not far now!
Hi DH - thanks for your respons
I will try the approach you recommend. I have never tried to memorize 1, 2 or 3 suits only. When I did 18 cards I picked 18 cards randomly from the deck. Maybe this wasn’t the best way to do it. I did maybe 10-15 runs with 18 cards in 2 days, and didn’t improve. My speed is not much faster with fewer cards! And I know why: for some reason I’m a slow and bad starter. My visualization is weak to begin with… I need to work on that.
Great times Huggy! We seem to be about the same level at the moment.
Well I’ve got better advice now, Vonde! While working on eliminating subvocalization, I can’t work on speed also. So instead I resolved to do each image of each deck in a way completely novel. And I did so many decks with this in mind that I finally understand (I think) why Ben is always recommending to just “memorize more decks.” I feel like what I’ve experienced over the past 24 is what I was supposed to experience, and only doing more decks made it possible (since nobody laid it out cut-and-dry for me).
Without worrying about time, memorize a deck. Don’t worry about failure - just focus on breaking every rule you thought you knew. I am now putting one card in some loci, four or five in other loci, and some others between or around other loci. I am using images that remind me of the characters, even if it is not the “official” object. I am mixing the clothing and accessories on people. I am adding new actions that don’t even represent specific cards, just so I can incorporate more objects or people where I want them. I am having the characters behave in ways that represent cards but in ways I had not thought of, and I love it! For instance, Michael Jordan’s action is dunking. Always, when the three of spades was in the middle, a character would dunk something. Always. Boring. Why not have the character dribbling the object, trying to juke and do a spin move around another character who is trying to steal it, fading back for a long jump shot - nearly blocked - that instead of going straight into a basketball hoop, is caught by Gandhi - an alley-oop! - who slams it into a hoop with a backboard made of a slice of bread! Now that’s awesome! And it locks six cards away in that one loci. The next loci starts with the next character with a gaping jaw and wide eyes - he saw the whe thing, and is ASTONISHED! Is his astonished gaze consistent with the next action? If so, use it. If not, move on to the next loci, or if you prefer, jam the PAO in that same loci - right in front of his face - he is so astonished, he doesn’t even see it! All this time I have thought about adjectives, modifiers, surfaces, natural disasters - a million potential ways to fit four or five cards per loci instead of just three. Now I don’t have to worry about any of that anymore! Just go through the cards in order and make something awesome!
This method works for me, but other people probably prefer more structure (I try to reduce structure in my life as a general rule and natural inclination). Either way, go free form with it for a little while - don’t do ANY PAO how you would have before - and I guarantee you will wind up with a few brand new ideas at the very least.
Memo’d my first deck in a long time the other day… Sigh, around 10 minutes… my problem was just that I was having trouble creating the image, then connecting it to the locus. I didn’t have too much trouble remember what my PAO for each card was though, so that was good. My recall was nearly perfect, I just swapped 2 cards (the 7D and QD, iirc. They were each O’s in that deck, the 7D O is a star wars battle droid, the QD O is a destroyer droid/droideka. I accidently swapped the two images since they are pretty similar).I think I’m going to try the 18 card memorization speed practice later, as you guys were suggesting a few posts/days ago.
Two droids?
Another benefit to using few cards is that you can focus on the really hard cards. When I get that second deck again, Im going to pick out the 26 hardest cards from both decks and shuffle them together.
Good job with your recall. It really is tricky to recall when it takes more than four minutes or so to memorize the deck. If you are practicing with just 18 cards, maybe you should see how well you can do without reviewing the earlier loci. It’s not easy. When you said it took you a long time to “connect the images to the loci’” what do you mean by this? I just see the image taking place in a certain spot for the most part but know that there is more to learn about this. Yesterday when memorizing random objects I actually replaced doors and furniture with the objects, rather than just having a tree grow out of my couch, I removed the couch and replaced it with a tree. Surprisingly, this was more striking and memorable for me.
Can you describe what you ended up doing to “connect the image to a loci” in a specific situation?
God I’m so close to a minute (from time to time) but I’m so worn out I don’t think it can happen tonight!
yeah, I know, I should probably change one of them, but they’re not that similar.
droideka
battle droid
By connecting the images to the loci, I mean taking the image (e.g., Dori (the dwarf) braiding an apple peel) and attaching it to the location (e.g., my front door). When I see the cards I can create the image, but it’s sort of just the only thing when I first create it. It’s just kind of surrounded by blackness or whiteness or some other random background (it’s sometimes like the ocean or a forest or something), so then I have to take the image and put it at the front door. It’s a bit tricky for me sometimes to get it to actually be there and to be clear as well, not just a sort of fuzzy, blurry version of the image (and door). I think I might try what you said you are doing - replacing the object, rather than adding. So in my example maybe I’d remember Dori leaning up against the edge of the door frame whilst he braids an apple peel.
And yeah, reviewing the cards is extremely helpful, even if you only do it once at the end of the deck. I should practice without doing that.
I see. No need to totally change one if you like them, but maybe you could give one a trademark - a permanent “bow in the hair” so to speak. (a permanently blazing red limb, for instance?)
I highly recommend spreading through the cards and focusing on being able to look at the cards while visualizing moving through the loci at-speed. Once you are automatically visualizing the loci you should be at, you’ll shave off huge chunks of time. And it isn’t hard.