Are Mnemonics And Memory Training Useless For Real World Applications?

General Memory Chat
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Well … just go ask Ben why he was unemployed or maybe he still is … and why he did not dare to use his amazing memory to become a CEO somewhere !!

If memory has a cumulative effect … well Thomas Edison … forgot about his own wedding . And Albert Einstein … had also a very very bad memory .

Look at what Einstein said : “Never memorize something that you can look up.” . And he had very bad grades in school because he was put to memorize stuff instead of to understand stuff .

But he also said : “If you can’t explain it to a six year old, you don’t understand it yourself.” . Which is also what Richard Feynman said … the last big genius of this world …they were both Nobel Prize Winners … and they did not use loci or Major System or anything like that . Richard Feynman had the Iq of 125 … which is pretty darn mediocre. He had good technique to understand stuff … and actually recorded himself ( did not like to write down information) … explaining stuff .

And linking ideas in a illogical fashion … does not mean good comprehension but it does mean good retention . You need to connect ideas like I described above . Making ludicrous connections is not the way to do it .

I don’t think that Memory Champions will win a Nobel Prize for something … they never had … they never will . People that are preoccupied by these things … are usually people that want to prove to themselves something .

Also there are people that are retards that actually have a great memory . Your ability to retain information does not translate to your ability to comprehend information .

Also you can’t say about someone that has amnesia or something … that he lost all of his intelligence . He is still being able to reason . If Peg System or Loci were for improving intelligence … I think that they would be called intelligence tools instead of memory tools .

And a quote from OSHO :

“Intelligence comes from meditation, intelligence comes from rebellion, intelligence does not come from memory”

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That is all I had to say … I wish you guys luck with your mnemonics !! :slight_smile:

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1. I think this is manipulation :exmark:

    If you believe in this:
  • you must meditate = to loose time. Right?!
  • become rebel = without any kind of direction. Right?!
  • and (without any kind of knowledge :) ) BE PRESENT HERE and NOW = without history and future :)...like animals . Right?!

2. Definition of INTELLIGENCE (http://www.merriam-webster.com): […] the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one’s environment […]

SO, VERY IMPORTANT IS TO HAVE knowledge :slight_smile:

3. Read here: Dumb and Dumber: Study Says Humans Are Slowly Losing Their Smarts

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Osho took a lot of things from different authors … even from people like Freud and Karl Jung and he became a spiritual leader by teaching others these selections . He compared and understood these notes and came up with his theory . He said actually that you don’t really need religion in your life … you only need meditation . Meditation means to live in the present and was not the advocate of Yoga or something like that . Living in the present means being attentive of what you do .
Aside from that … Osho did make a ton of money probably and was even convicted ( for food poisoning I think )… because he manipulated his followers . There are even today people like Osho in America .For example - Mooji . Or for example Wayne Dyer . These are also spiritual leaders . And I think that you can actually learn some things from these people also … . They do make money from what they teach but … I don’t think that it is all ■■■■■■■■ . You can say more about religion that it is kind of nonsense . I think that there is truth in what Osho said even though people don’t like it . And he said pretty much the same thing as Albert Einstein … so … maybe Albert was manipulating us and he used mnemonics like crazy … but he did not want to let us know about them so he can remain the biggest genius ever . But … he he … he could not forestall the making of this wonderful website for example … where people believe that they could become geniuses like him by doing exactly the opposite … :slight_smile:

For example …Einstein said :

“Information is not knowledge.”

I do not mean to argue . I’ve said my point of view . There are a couple of people here that might agree with me a bit . I hope you will have great success and become great geniuses like some of you might think they can with these methods . I will certainly use mnemonics in a limited way … for those things that must be memorized and not learned without memorization .

And I don’t know about that definition but … there is a difference between intellect and intelligence . Intelligence means to see the facts as they are and come up with a solution based on those facts . And intellect … well that is more based on knowledge . You apply the knowledge that you have accumulated from the past … . But it is wise to accumulate that knowledge intelligently and to not have some absurd notions in your head . I have red a couple of definitions and they don’t seem to give a clear cut between things like other authors say .

I think Osho talked about rebellion … in a sense like … critical thinking … question everything that you get … don’t memorize everything that others say .

I wish you the best !! :slight_smile:

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Hope this isn’t too off topic, but just saw an episode of House today (S07E13) about a woman with perfect autobiographical memory. (Side Note: I remember being told in BioPsych that while this does occur, it occurs in people who have something in common - they record and review the events of their lives compulsively. It may therefore be linked with OCD. In this episode, that was actually her diagnosis in the end - Dr. Chase gave her an SSRI).

Dr. House is testing her memory and asks, “How many times did you fall in 2009?” She immediately said “20.” That is the kind of thing that we wish we could do - apply the information immediately…

But speaking of BioPsych - there was a lot of information in that class to learn, and it was the first semester that I had heard of mnemonics (my last semester). I made palaces to store the information in and used all these different symbols to represent the information (nerve=smurf), etc., and I would arrange these smurfs relaying messages back and forth between such and such, and basically, it was a pretty accurate spatial representation of what actually happens. I still remember a lot of information from that class, and did very well in it.

Especially when those images were sharpest, at the end of the semester, I would have been comfortable saying that I have a very good understanding and am knowledgeable about the biological components of the relationship between the brain and behavior, and I could have said that honestly, having reviewed my memory palaces enough to know intuitively exactly where to look in order to answer any question that could have been answered by the information that I knew.

That seems a whole lot like knowledge of the very best kind. It is limited, but only because I am neither a doctor nor in Med School. That it is mnemonic isn’t a problem, or it doesn’t seem to be. Before learning about mnemonics, I would have remembered those kinds of things by picturing a person with transparent skin, and seeing parts of a person’s brain and spinal column light up as they did certain things, or something to that effect. That really is a lot like mnemonics, so I don’t feel that memorizing with mnemonics (digits and cards are a different story) is very different from a natural way that certain people (like me) learn and remember information to begin with. It’s similar to the learning style that I think people who claim to be “visual learners” use all the time.

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Glad that the methods worked for you !!

But I would also try these methods :

http://thinksimplenow.com/productivity/how-to-learn-without-memorizing/

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I find it quite useful and I find Foer’s system to be quite limited. If he trains with a system that is only good for numbers than he needs to find a way to make number memory useful. I use a letter pair images system from A-ZZ which I have found very useful. I use them all the time, but I agree that information is better if it is eventually internalized intuitively. ok, some examples.

  1. I entered College this year and ended up having to remember a lot of names the first week. Remembering peoples names is important and much better than saying “what is your name again?” latter in the week. It was easy to I would see “Mike” and I would remember that I imagined him singing into a microphone. I did this for a lot of people. they didn’t know but I found it helpful.

2.Completely stopping reading for something that you don’t understand in a book is usually a bad idea, but I have a journey that I set up for when I am reading so if I do want to go back I can just take note of the page in the journey and check later when I am done. I find it useful.

  1. For those of us in mathematics,science and engineering, it is sometimes important to completely understand the precise meanings of definitions, theorems, laws, rules, axioms, etc and their consequences. It’s important to understand the exact fine print and search for shortcuts,exceptions, etc. I normally memorize about a dozen of these and I have something to think about on a run and I don’t need to carry a book around. You eventually do not need the locations over time but having the exact meaning can be very useful to learn while having fun.

4.Mission statements, Phone numbers, addresses,licence #'s, card #'s are very convenient to be able to learn quickly. We live in a very technological age with many passwords. It is helpful to have a way to remember those (since typing or writing them down is a breach of security).

5.Vocabulary is a breeze if you use the right techniques. It also helps to be a quotable person. and If you invest the time, then It can be a useful aid for song lyrics. You may not find that useful or having a “joke of the day” useful, but that is my personal opinion. I think it is useful to have things like that. an interesting place to take ideas from are actors. They make a profession by learning their lines and mnemonic tricks are used and useful for their trade.

  1. Directions are useful to be able to memorize quickly. Especially if you have to ask someone.

That is about all that I use it for that could be anywhere close to practical. There may be more. It is doubtful how useful the Morse code and periodic table will be since that is somewhat trivial. Some short stories would be fun to know and I would be very pleased if these techniques were used to help students understand the constitution but that is not even read in school nowadays. Numbers, cards and blindsolving are just for fun, but I am sure that it is still more beneficial than TV.

As for Einstein, I mostly agree with him. It’s important to completely understand fundamentals before you complicate things, but It would have been beneficial if he could have done his own math without constantly relying on the help of his wife and others to do all of the mathematical reasoning for him. That was clearly one of the major obstacles that he had in his career.

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"Ben … there are some people on this forum that think you can actually improve your intelligence by using mnemonics . They actually say that if you , Ben , go in any field you want , because of the fact that you trained your mind with mnemonics , you can obliterate anyone from that field and become the best … because you are able to decode information much better and faster than anyone else .

What do you have to say about that ?"

Ben Pridemore’s answer :

I honestly don’t think anyone really thinks that. There are people who try to sell training courses on memory techniques based on that kind of idea, but nobody really buys it, right?

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That was for gsdjager

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To say that these techniques are of no use in real-world applications implies a fundamental misunderstanding of how memory actually works. I stand by my previous point. If we get Ben to engage in a memory task not included in any form of competition, he’d still probably beat an ordinary person hands down; not because his “memory” is better, but because his encoding and retrieval will be better. I’m not for one moment suggesting that he’ll be better at reasoning because of this, but if he can utilize it over a period of time he’ll have a significant advantage over an ordinary person, since he’ll be able to build his schema much quicker. There are a few other things to consider as well, but more efficient coding of information is a great foundation for improving higher cognitive functioning.

Also, with memory and comprehension it’s not an either/or situation; they go hand in hand.

This is what you wrote … . If Ben engages engages in a memory task … he will be better because of the fact that his encoding is better . And memory and comprehension goes hand in hand .

Well memory and comprehension do not actually go hand in hand all the time . It depends on how you encode that information which pretty much depends on your intelligence. If you just retain it … or you use mnemonics … that does not mean comprehension . If you comprehend … well that is another story . But it does not mean the same thing . I gave you the example with poetry . It was pretty much obvious .

And you wrote : "Ok, wait. When I mentioned memory, I didn’t mean recall. Memory involves much more than just the recalling of information. It also encompasses the encoding and storage of that information " .

Definition of Memory:
The ability to remember past experiences or learned information, involving advanced mental processes such as learning, retention, recall, and recognition.

So you actually state that memory means more than just recall ( and it sometimes does like the definition says )… it also means that you must encode better the information . Well … you just gave us the example above … that Ben can obliterate anyone in any field because he can encode information better . And Ben pretty much said it all .

From my point of view … there are 2 different processes … like it says in the definition "past experiences or learned material ". One process involves the retention of material - for example memorizing some sounds that you can’t actually understand at all because it is too complicated . So you retain those sounds even though you don’t understand anything .

The 2’nd process is you actually encode information … because you comprehend what it is said . When you give back the information … it is in a different form , with different words … because you have encoded well … so you can explain it with different arguments . This process cannot be attained with mnemonics , because mnemonics means actually distorting some images by using absurdity or some other elements that don’t quite fit into the natural picture of things .

Also people seem to confuse plain visualization with mnemonics . Mnemonics means to add elements that aid in retention of information . And these elements don’t quite fit into the actual picture . For me … if I learn something from history … it is different to imagine Ribbentrop and Molotov in a bathroom signing a treaty with a huge pen … with imagining them at Kremlin or whatever … placing them where they actually should had been . I think that the more you use the actual elements … the more you comprehend what it really happened versus retaining the information by using elements that don’t actually have their place in the picture .

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I think that comprehension and understanding are related to memorization, but do not depend on it.
Being able to use mnemonics, and so memorizing quickly, is a great advantage if your goal is to learn/understand something; but i think that deep understanding of a topic requires the ability to generalize what has been learned, and to apply it to previously unseen cases.
So, having a great memory allows you to acquire facts, definitions, examples faster, and even if it helps comprehension (because, the more examples you know, the easier it is to apply it to something new), it doesn’t substitute it.

I’ll try to make an example of what i mean writing about an article I read some time ago. (I can’t remember where i read it( but you can try to google it), and i’m not even sure if what it said is still valid; just take it as an example). The article was about scientists who tried to teach animals (probably monkeys) how to count: the result was that the animals could remember and recognize the numbers they were taught, but they couldn’t generalize what they had learned and use higher numbers. So, what i want you to take from this example is that memorizing is different from understanding.

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For me … the more I connect ideas in a logical fashion … the more I understand . If I just commit to memory with the use of mnemonics or even with repetition … I won’t really know that subject .

I believe that there are many layers of understanding … and those layers are achieved only with the use of good logical thinking .

Even ex memory champions don’t really say something clear when they are asked about the application of these methods to subjects like science where one should employ logic .

Watch the author of Moonwalking with Einstein … in his interview … he says he recommends being mindful instead of using memory techniques in day to day life .

I am sorry if my messages are upsetting anyone . I will try to end the discussion here … because I find it pointless to go on . I know that I did not convince anyone … and you did not convince me .

There are a couple of guys here that might agree with me , like Red314 for example … who know that there is a difference between using your memory and understanding .

Have a nice day :slight_smile:

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Mnemonic techniques are not useless in the real world, but they also are not magic pixie dust that allows anyone to learn anything effortlessly. They are just another tool.

Personally, I think the most practical applications involve very rapid encoding, like remembering someone’s name or phone number on the fly, or remembering a license plate of a car that left an accident. I think it’s less practical for remembering large amounts of information. It can help some with vocabulary words, but when trying to learn a broader topic, time is better spent creating a mental framework and understanding how different aspects of a topic interact and affect each other.

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Just to pitch in – I thought the comments were nicely formulated and well philosophized. But at the end of the day, the question of the topic is “are mnemonic techniques useful in the real world?” How can you say no to that? Giving a speech from memory is clearly better than reading from cue cards. Remembering numbers or constants you need regularly is more efficient than looking them up every time. Remembering people’s names and their spouses’ names is a great advantage.

Of course learning via rote memorization is worse than learning via building connections. Of course it’s a reasonably worthless trick to be able to memorize a deck of cards (though I’m sure you could frequently impress people, so maybe it’s not that worthless). But some things are just very handy to have known.

For example, I’m a mathematician and programmer by training. My entire business is constructing logic and applying it. However, if I was taking an exam, sure, I could understand how formulae work and what the construction of a proof is. But what if I needed to

  • Remember the gravitational constant to double check my math?
  • Memorize some formulae that I didn't fully understand or didn't have time to fully understand?
  • Remember a few phone numbers in case my phone dies and I desperately need to contact someone?
  • Remember the value of a Mole ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_(unit) )?
  • Memorize rock classification charts (I did this for a class once, it was on the exam, and a massive pain -- http://csmres.jmu.edu/geollab/fichter/IgnRx/simpclass2.gif -- about 8x as much as this one chart)

So there are things in real life which you are a) hard to memorize, b) you don’t need to make connections to or really think about unless you need them, and c) need to be memorized. And for those things you should apply mnemonic techniques.

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I think Harry Lorayne can answer the OP question in one or two sentences - I paraphrase:

“There are three keys to learning: Knowing how to find the information - Knowing how to remember the information - Knowing how to apply the information”

It could be said then, (according to Harry :slight_smile: ) that memory is one of the 3 pillars of learning.

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Do you have a basic strategy to share with us? I’d love to read about it!

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I assume each person will have techniques that work best for them. But here’s what works for me.

Personally, I like mind maps. I don’t do anything formal with them. Mainly I will read about a topic I don’t understand, and I will just start writing down keywords or key concepts, just to get them on paper. I write them randomly on the paper, spaced out, with a circle around them, so I can connect the circles and see how the key words and concepts relate to each other. After I gain some understanding, I will usually recreate the mind map in a better organized way (the first time never works out very organized, because I don’t know the relationships between concepts yet). It’s also helpful to recreate the mind map from memory. That’s how you reinforce what you’ve learned, by recalling it.

I also like to self-quiz myself, usually using some kind of flash card app. I will try to create flash cards as I am learning something, and then I will run through the flash cards to verify I remember all of the key concepts. I like this because I don’t trust myself. It’s easy to tell myself, “Of course I remember the last chapter”, and move on to the next one. But I know that I’m lazy, so in my laziness, it’s easy to convince myself not to revisit the previous chapter. Usually when this happens, I get several chapters ahead of what I actually understand, then the idea of going back and redoing a bunch of work seems disheartening and I’ll move on to something else. So I started quizzing myself to make sure I know the old stuff before moving on to new stuff. I really like it.

I especially like the self-quiz as a way to review the material because I’m busy and might be tied up with work for days. So I might read a chapter and learn something, but I might not pick up where I left off again for several days or a week or two. So I either have to have some kind of notes or summary to quickly get me caught up, or the self-quiz helps with that as well.

If I’m reading a book digitally, like on the Kindle or Nook app, or even just a PDF, I will use the highlighting feature extensively. I highlight anything that seems interesting or noteworthy, and then the app will show you a list of everything you have highlighted. It makes for a good, quick review of the material.

I remember a story about Isaac Newton. He started reading a book on geometry. He only understood the first few pages. Once he got to a point where he could not understand, he started at the beginning of the book and re-read it, and each time he made it farther, and ultimately he would master the material. Most of us are not that humble to say, “I’m only on page 3 and I don’t understand, back to the beginning!”

And finally if you can use the material in some way, it helps a great deal with understanding. If I learn something new in chess, and I get to use it in a real game, that concept becomes very hard to forget. If I’m learning a programming language, it sticks with me if I use the language and struggle with it a bit. If you only read about it and don’t use it, it fades away. You have to use it. That’s why it’s hard to become an expert on something that isn’t also your day job. My day job is an IT consultant, so I fix computers and design new systems for businesses. But I secretly want to become a day-trader, but it’s very hard because I spend 8-10 hours a day doing something that’s not day trading. I used to play online poker and made money at it, but it took study and a lot of time. I would spend 2-3 hours most evenings, and more on the weekends. Even then I was not exceptional, just good enough to make a profit. So if you can get a job doing what you want to learn about, you will become an expert on it much quicker. Unfortunately that often means starting at the bottom, so once you start making more money it’s hard to justify taking a big pay cut to learn something new.

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I’ll also add, taking your time is important. You can read something without comprehending it. My wife is a teacher and she says “reading is thinking” (if you do it right), so you should always be questioning, “what’s the author saying? what’s happening? what’s the most important thing in this chapter? what’s something interesting in this chapter? why did he say this and not that?”, and so on.

I heard a chess grandmaster say that he has learned the most from reading chess books that are written in another language, because it forces him to take his time. Reading quickly is like watching TV. You can watch what’s on the screen, but it doesn’t mean you are taking it in, and it keeps moving forward whether you are paying attention or not.

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