Are Mnemonics And Memory Training Useless For Real World Applications?

This is the stance taken by ex memory champion, Joshua Foer, the writer behind Moonwalking with Einstein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-E9MMTciBo

If you watch from around 21 minutes and over you can see that he presents some facts but at the same time he is very demeaning towards the memory arts. While I haven’t read his book I looked through many reviews and summaries and the overall message I get from Mr. Foer is “Look at me. I spent a year of my life being trained on silly memory techniques, won an irrelevant memory championship and realize that these are nothing more than a set of parlor tricks”.

I don’t know if anyone else find this obnoxious. For some reason it seems like he saw this as more of an opportunity to exploit some weaknesses in the memory subculture and profit from it. Now he has a movie coming out on this monstrosity Moonwalking with Einstein - IMDb

At the moment I have two questions.
What are your opinions?
Do you find memory training to be invaluable when it comes to real world functionality?

Yes … my opinion is that it is true . Mnemonics are used for memorizing data … they are not used for learning . Sure … you can use them for things that don’t require logic . But, like I said before … can you learn something logically and illogically at the same time ?

Ultimately … knowing a subject means actually … being able to answer all of the questions that can come up regarding that subject. So if you memorize the material … you won’t be able to do that . You actually need to explore that material … and ask yourself why is this so and so … and so on . You actually need to connect ideas between them and come up with conclusions . That is why notetaking is so important … that is why something like a Mind Map is invaluable . I do not say that Mind Maps are the only solution … but … the more you dig into that material that you are learning … the more you will know and the more you will remember . The fact remains that learning with mnemonics is pretty darn useless … unless it is something that can’t be learned differently . Learning facts , or capitals of the world , or foreign words for a language is great use … or lists of chemical formulas( like someone here said) , maybe for becoming a pharmacist different properties . The examples could go on .

I have given an example like this from Dominic O’brien’s book . He advocates using Mind Maps before trying to use mnemonics like Journey or whatever … to study for a test .

Hope to see other people’s opinion on this !!

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Steps onto a soapbox and clears throat

“No! A thousand times, No! Mnemonics and Memory training are useful in real-world situations!”

And this is not an expression of my opinion, but an assertion that this is an undeniable fact. Will happily deconstruct contrary arguments, starting with the one above :).

We do not actually know your position regarding this claim, Ginel. You may be on my side. What we do know is that you do not believe that mnemonics and memory techniques are useful for learning within your narrow definition of that term. That’s a line I’m not interested in pursuing, but if I were to do so, I would start by saying that your definition of “learning” is arbitrary and needlessly exclusive. You are in good company though - Einstein does share your opinion that “One should not waste time memorizing that which can easily be looked up in a book,” which I think is what you’re getting at. That may be a paraphrase of his exact quote, but the meaning is the same, and the statement is doubly powerful today, since we have the interwebz.

Let’s suppose that “knowing” a subject means “actually being able to answer all of the questions that can come up regarding that subject.” You say that with mere mnemonic memorization, you will not be able to do that. This is true only in cases where you must answer questions that have not been answered before. Otherwise, the memorized answer will suffice. Actually, most questions you will be asked regarding any subject, such as, over 95% of the questions that have appeared on jeopardy over the last 20 years, can be answered by recalling memorized material. Also, even if you knew a subject, say “Chemistry,” so well that you could solve all of the problems and questions that might arise, you would necessarily be able to recall any of the information about the elements that must be known initially in order to answer those questions or solve those problems, which mnemonics could very well aid in memorizing, so the memorized information is at a minimum necessary and fundamental. Understanding could not occur without it.

But the thread is not about “knowing.” It is about the usefulness of mnemonics in real-world situations.

  1. The ability to memorize is helpful in some real-world situations.
  2. There is no threshold beyond which too great of an ability to memorize is a hindrance in real-world situations.
  3. There is a threshold below which too feeble an ability to memorize is a hindrance in real-world situations.
  4. Mnemonic techniques aid in speed of memorization and/or capacity.
  5. In real-world situations that do not require memorization, the ability to memorize is irrelevant.

Therefore,

  1. There are real-world advantages to being a trained mnemonist.

And that’s that. It is strange and interesting that there could ever be a need to formulate this argument. I chalk this up to the confusion between the capabilities afforded by skill in the art of mnemonics and the typical applications of that skill.

The memory championships are a bastardization of the art.

That quote of Foer’s: “Look at me. I spent a year of my life being trained on silly memory techniques, won an irrelevant memory championship and realize that these are nothing more than a set of parlor tricks,” is woefully misleading, and a tragedy for its wide circulation. He has equated “memory techniques” with “parlor tricks” with the same apparent inability to discriminate as a little boy who says, “you are only capable of parlor tricks” to a man who he knows can conjure matter from thin air, but who chooses to use this power only to produce quarters from behind peoples’ ears.

Everyone here is capable of making an outdoor loci path and adding, on average, one loci per day. Everyone here is capable of numbering those loci, and using each loci to memorize multiple pieces of information that they can visualize. Everyone here is capable of retaining that memorized information indefinitely, as long as they are able to review as much as they need to. That means that everyone here is capable of retaining the memory of every important or meaningful event that ever happens to them in their entire life, knowing the exact day each meaningful event occurred on, and understanding each event’s chronological relationship to every other event that they deem important in their entire life. Everyone here is capable of walking through their entire life, noting each important event’s chronological relationship with any other event of their choosing, and analyzing every event in between in order to come up with new realizations about themselves and their lives. No one else ever has to know.

Is anyone here willing to declare that this is a “parlor trick?”

p.s.,

Newton-Tesla,

Your name suggests that you have an appreciation for both Newton and due credit for advances in physics. Do you know about Galileo’s specific relationship to Newton’s Laws?

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Se we gotta train to make conclusions und connections between information.
Which book explains those topics?

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Well thank you DoubleHelix for the answer . I am not trying to contradict for the sake of it . I do want to get the bottom of this also … because my opinion may be flawed . I do have to say that I also appreciate your eloquence .I think you want to tackle bigger problems than what most of us face .

"4) Mnemonic techniques aid in speed of memorization and/or capacity. " … If you refer to the improvement of your real memory power … that will not happen . Your memory will improve only sustained by mnemonics . Your natural memory will actually stay the same … and it will probably decline with age like usual . Ask Ben Pridemore, he answered this question very nicely … although many books claim the oposite . They claim that you can actually battle natural memory loss that occurs . If you refer that you improve your trained memory … that seems to be true .

I do think that to some extent mnemonics do help … but not the way people might think . You said it yourself that you need to answer first those questions and then use mnemonics to memorize them. But the questions are pretty much endless in any field . So if you can’t come up with any conclusions from what you read … then it is all for nothing . A conclusion is a piece of information that is missing from the material . If a patient comes and tells his doctor all of his symptoms … the doctor must come up with some conclusions based on what his patient tells him . Every patient may have different symptoms . . For instance there was a documentary on TV with the smartest people on earth . And they all had something in common . None of them were organized thinkers . The brain does not seem to work well by filing memories … that is what the documentary said . But … the brain does work well if you make connections between information . And it can come up with different solid conclusions from this information . If you have good quality connections between information … you will also be able to remember stuff better but not as a mnemonist that is for sure .

For passing tests … mnemonics seem to be invaluable , that is for sure … but in the long run … I’m not sure what to think .

So my question is … can you have spontaneity and come up with different conclusions to stuff if you filed those pieces of information as separate units in your memory ? Cause I don’t have the answer to that frankly !! If I have 2 -3 different memories that don’t really relate to one another because they were put each one on different points in some journey … then … well … ??

And for example … there are people that think they know something just because they remember it … but … if you want to write your own book about that subject … what do you do ? You still need to make your connections between pieces of information from what you know to come up with your own personal opinion about things .

I know what you are saying … you are not the advocate of learning only by using mnemonics … without understanding first but … still … I am not sure if mnemonics don’t actually interfere with the natural thought process . There are people here that think they only need to remember stuff or just understand the surface of things and then remember it and it is enough . I don’t think that is true !!

Ps. I don’t consider myself an expert on mnemonics or learning in general . I am still trying to find out stuff myself … even if I’ve used mnemonics for over 3-4 years now . So please dispute what I say … :slight_smile:

I’ve got a different impression from Moonwalking with Einstein. Foer really thinks that the hability to memorize numbers and packs of cards are just tricks, but recognizes that mnemotechniques are very useful to learning and making good citizens - there’s a whole chapter about it called “The Talented Tenth”.

@Hanselder

Learn more study less by Scott Young … I have sent you that book already , if I’m not mistaken . And also The Mind Map book says the same thing … by Tony Buzan . People compare the Mind map with mnemonics … but Mind Mapping is an entire different thing . Mind Mapping is done for understanding better first of all . And also remembering …secondly .

In a Mind Map you make connections from the beginning of the book to the end of the book that you are studying . You make connections between ideas that you encountered . But I think that it is an art to find those key ideas from what you read … and it is actually up to you .

There was a kid that wanted to go to Harvard and the other kids laughed at him because of the fact that he was a mediocre kid . But the story goes that he actually started making Mind Maps over Mind Maps to understand better the material … and actually went to Harvard . The story I think is true … I have searched some time ago on the internet and it confirmed . I think I’ve red it in the Mind Map book .

Mind Maps are not the only tool . Every single way of connecting ideas between them is useful . You can for example draw diagrams , make analogies , write definitions from large pieces of text … and so on . Every single way that makes your brain filter the information is useful . And you can actually combine methods.

This kid explains things very good a few :

http://thinksimplenow.com/productivity/how-to-learn-without-memorizing/

The thing is … you can look at the learning process like an endless one . People want to finish quickly to get back to some other things . But … you can stay with the material as long as you want … and the more you stay … the better you get . Also … future material that relates to this one that you are learning now … will get more easy … because those connections will be made much faster because you have a solid foundation of knowledge .

Also people learn definitions without really understanding them because they think it is required for them to get a good grade in school . But that is false . Good teachers actually praise someone who came up with their own explanation on things and they did not put down word for word material that they have learned . I have given you already the example of Oxford kids . I’ve seen it on TV . They were asked about how things were over there … and they said that back home … they were praised if they had a good memory and could give back in testing the same information that they got from their class almost word for word… but in Oxford … if you weren’t able to say your own piece of mind … you would not get very far .

And in fact … explaining stuff to yourself better … means a very good retention … look here… it says you can retain 90 % of the material learned like this :

Now … why would I want to learn with journeys … if I can learn stuff like this ??

Albert Einstein at one point … did not like some school he was in because they made him memorize stuff .

I can see some value in what DoubleHelix says … but I would have a firm base of understanding stuff with those methods I mentioned before using mnemonics .

:slight_smile:

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That book talks about finding the smartest man in the world in the first chapter … and then goes on and on for the entire book maybe … talking about memory . If thinking and remembering are the same thing … well … I wish you luck …

He also mentions at one point about mind mapping … that they are good for creativity … and says that mnemonics and mind mapping are basically two sides of the same coin . I disagree . Connecting ideas in a logical fashion is not the same with connecting ideas in an absurd fashion .

Also the author says that Some guy that is actually autistic … uses mnemonics . I doubt that . There are savants … that have a different brain structure than us .

Daniel tammet seems to be one of them . You can google him if you want .

I haven’t red all of the book … and don’t even plan to do it !!

Also … he says he found the smartest man in the world … sort of … the champion Ben Pridemore . So … you can actually go and ask him if he thinks he is the smartest in the world . :slight_smile: here on this forum . Just a little joke … hope it doesn’t offend anyone !!

This is the world turned upside down.

I learned about mnemonics in the 1980’s.
Back then it was almost 100% real life application and maybe 1 or 2 card tricks.

Then the competitions came and now people think there is no real life application anymore!

Real life applications:
remembering adresses
remembering names and faces
remembering where I parked my car in a crowded city after days of not using it
learning languages
help in study
making a speech without using cards
learning codes, licence plates etc.
etc.

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Kinma … I believe you are right . For those things they are useful !! But people are getting themselves in learning different disciplines verbatim .

Look at this request for example :

:slight_smile: I do share your skepticism, and like you, I would have to start from square one to work out most of those questions you posed. The question really isn’t whether mnemonics are useful, but what the scope of that usefulness is. We might possibly get a little closer to having something to say about that after getting rid of this false dichotomy between “real” memory and “mnemonic” memory. If mnemonic memories are not real, then what on earth are they? Still, what it sounds like we are wondering about here is “insight.” Insight is what you need in order to write a meaningful book on some topic, and whether a person can glean insight from information he “knows” or “has memorized” seems to depend on the immediacy of that information. Information memorized with mnemonics is encrypted, and its mnemonic form, it is always one step away from the kind of availability that might be necessary for intuition to snag it, and for insight to occur, which is sad.

I think that this is the reason that it is so easy to consider mnemonic memories “unreal” in some sense. Every day, old information that we had forgotten that we ever knew to begin with pops into our head without our willing it, always when it most is relevant, and that is the property that gives us the feeling that that is the kind of information that we “really” know. In order for us to feel we “know” something, we arbitrarily require that that information be accessible to the subconscious.

You mentioned a diagnostician who looks at specific symptoms and attempts to determine the underlying causes. I don’t know anything about medicine, but I would imagine that this is a slow and deliberate processes of probing through possible avenues one at a time, until something goes wrong, and then trying something new. Since this is deliberate, and does not depend on insight, it actually sounds like the kind of thing that mnemonics would be perfect for.

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The difference between a natural memory and a memory that relies on mnemonics is of course … the way that it is formed .

A good natural memory works well even with events that were not that spectacular or if you want …not that memorable ( I know it sounds awkward maybe ). This kind of memory is more spontaneous . And it can be triggered more easily by something from the exterior .

A trained memory … well … that memory is kind of artificial … because you want to create from an ordinary event something extraordinary in your mind or if you want … something that it is memorable . And actually … it is a lot of work if you think about it . When you are walking down the street you are not that natural … you are not admiring nature … you try to commit it to memory through a process that goes inside of your mind . This type of memory is not that easily triggered from real life events… because you filed it …and it is not really linked to something from an event . For example … I don’t think that text learned verbatim with mnemonics could be useful in a talk show or any discussion for that matter.

As for insight … I believe that you get more insight out of material that you learned properly with what I describe . But I’m going to have an open mind on things and try a few stuff before saying that the methods are wasteful .

For me … to learn means to digest material as much as possible . And digesting material actually means answering as many questions as possible relating to that discipline and seeing how things really relate to one another in that text that you try to learn .

I would be curious on how you approach learning from start to end .Maybe you have opened a topic about it somewhere … :slight_smile:

Anyways … thanks for the debate !! I will try to combine some mnemonics to my learning and see how it goes … I have used them only for some recipes and for learning foreign words . It was interesting talking to you !! Thanks for the info !!

Ginel, I agree with your sentiment.
Mnemonics is not for understanding.
Learning things and understanding things are very different.

When you keep in mind that you do not always have to understand in order to learn, you will be fine.

I see requests for memorizing books verbatim and I generally don’t reply to those requests.

It reminds me too much of the carpenter who can only fix things using a hammer.

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No way !! Memory and comprehension are entirely different things … . For example … you have kids that know some poem … and can recite that poem . And some kids who did not memorize that poem but understood when they’ve red the poem all the metaphors that the poem contained . They practically understood what is all about … but maybe did not have the time to repeat the poem 15 times to remember it. Do you think that you know what Shakespeare said in his opera just because you can recite his poems ? . As for Ben … he did not use any of his skills outside memory competitions . He may be able to memorize speeches and names and faces . But when it comes to actually learning … you still need to make solid connections … and draw some conclusions . I think you are confused if you think that memorizing and understanding are actually the same thing . :slight_smile:

Kinma … this is what I’m talking about .

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I think that mnemonics in general are very useful and they have “real world” applications, but they help learning only in limited areas.
If you’re learning a language they are extremely useful to memorize vocabulary and idioms, but we must keep in mind that knowing lots of words is very different from knowing how to speak a language.
If you’re studying history, for example, they can help you memorize facts and dates, but if you want to study a scientific subject like math or physics, they’re not very useful at all. The beauty of physics is the fact that starting from few laws you can derive everything you need to know, only using your reasoning (and math of course), but without introducing new facts. If you need to learn the proof of a theorem, you can memorize it using mnemonics, but i think it is not worth it because if you’re able to understand how the proof actually works then it will come to you naturally, and you’ll be able to apply the same kind of reasoning to other theorems/proofs/problems.

Moving to memory champions, I think of course that they’re great athletes and they are very good at what they do, but their accomplishments in memory competitions are results of intensive training on a extremely specific task. Being able to memorize a deck of cards in 30 secs in incredible, but this skill is very hard to transfer to other activities: for example every method used to memorize cards is based on the fact that a deck of cards is composed of 52 cards (and it has to be this way, because you want the method to be optimized to the task you’re trying to complete), but if the deck was made of 104 cards, 52 of them “standard cards” and the other 52 “special cards” (with symbols or images the athlete is not accustomed with), it would take for sure more than a minute to memorize the full deck.
What I’m saying is that mnemonics used in memory competitions are very specific.
When it comes to learning something from scratch, i think that a memory champion, or someone who knows hot to use mnemonics, would probably have an advantage when learning a language (because of the vocabulary), but he or she wouldn’t have any advantage when learning a subject that requires deep understanding and the application of what has been learned (e.g the solution of problems).

Well … thank you Red314 … I see that there are people here that have common sense . You said it all ! That is my point exactly !!