I’m quite new to this whole thing. Some would consider me good with very long strings of digits, but this is my first day picking up the cards. I’m gonna hit you with rapid fire questions in the end. Sorry if some of these are answered within this long thread.
Here are some ideas I have just by playing around through the day:
You guys use so many different methods; PAO seems best - so I’ve made a small adjustment to PAO that should perhaps shave off time. Most people seem to agree that shoving more information per loci is a good idea. It is logical, since Complex images seem to stick better. I’m adding a descriptive adjective within the PAxO, such as, David Copperfield -produces from a hat - a FUZZY - bunny. “Fuzzy” is very easily transferable across objects and seems to make images far more vivid (Oprah swallowing a FUZZY deck of cards). Has anyone played with this idea, and what were your conclusions about the method?
I have only made the spades for tonight, but my even numbers are female. Not bothering with using a major system here because if I have to use mnemonics to conjure a card’s associated image, then my time would suck anyway. It’s going to have to be a direct association in the end, so I’m picking the images more carefully.
Here are some questions, and I’d love to hear back from any/all of you.
Have you had greater success with personal acquaintances, celebrities, cartoons, or otherwise fictional characters? I am considering using Pokemon for the hearts, since I played that video game growing up and I have devoted far more cognitive effort into considering those pokemon than I have for any celebrities.
Have you had greater success with violent, or with sexual imagery? Are any other types even better than those?
I will certaintly give that a go. I guess I wanted to make sure that I could get through 34 with ease before trying 52. It is still early days, and I am still experimenting with what works best for me.
So far, I have been trying:-
one person, per loci,
one person with one action/object per loci (which is how I got 34)
I even thought about mixig the above two (1 person per loci for the first journey (17) then doing person/action for the remainder of the journey, but wasn’t sure if this would complicate things.
Tried 52 cards for the first time (PAO, 17 loci) - I got 50/52 correct with a time of 14 mins. Yes, I know this is snail pace, but I will work on it (Thank you Hype).
From a cognitive perspective, can any of you speed demons explain what it is that makes you get faster? I mean is it:-
The familiarity with the cards (meaning instant association)
The ability to create scenarios quicker with your respective PAOs
Or, Just improvement of the memories capacity to hold more information
I suspect that improvement of time may well be an amalagamation of all three, but I would be interested to hear the thoughts of those who have experienced vast improvements.
1 and 2 are far more important than 3, especially for just one deck. Which one is more important at any given time will just depend on how strong you are in one or the other. My experience: I got to a comfortable speed at creating scenarios, where I felt improving that would be too much work for too little gain. So then I began to focus on association and that pushed me from ~5 minutes to 3 minutes. At this point I definitely hadn’t plateaued on association speedups, I was just satisfied with my time and moved on to other stuff. Your satisfaction may vary
At present, the scenario side of things is what uses most time for me. I guess this is a ubiquitous obstacle among ‘noobs’ like myself.
I have to say, that I find it amazing that some people on this forum are able to create scenarios in like 1-3 seconds and then move on to the next giving them sub 1 minute times! (Well done to you all! :). Not sure if I could ever emulate that, but I will certainly be trying…
Unfortunately, no…But, maybe it’s just my case. If I compare the time I practiced cards and numbers, it’s not the same. But yeah, theoretically, you’re right, and I was thinking about it, too. But it’s all about practice.
I switched to 52 images / 26 loci, because I started training marathon disciplines, and it would take a lot of loci. That was the only reason. So I think I can reply to your comment because one image per loci was method I was using from the beginning.
By the way, numbers are my weak part. I was addicted on cards, so numbers weren’t “important” for me… But they are now. I don’t think cards are bad, speed cards: 27.13 (recall was under one minute, just speaking them out, no mistake), and 30 minutes cards: 11 decks. I’m heading 12 these days. But my speed numbers are maybe 250. There are a lot of competitors with worse times on speed cards, but they would wipe the floor with me in speed numbers.
So just train both the same time, if you want the same results.
Yes, you can post about your improvements, it will be great, I’d like to watch how good you’re going. I could get to 30 seconds for the whole deck in 3 months. If you looked at my previous posts in this topic, you could see, that I couldn’t get under 20 minutes when I registered to this forum. Maybe this will motivate you, that 1 image per loci is simple, but powerful system, because it’s easy to master.
Unfortunately, no…But, maybe it’s just my case. If I compare the time I practiced cards and numbers, it’s not the same. But yeah, theoretically, you’re right, and I was thinking about it, too. But it’s all about practice.
Impressive.
For this reason, I had thought of lining up the cards a-k, suit after suit, and using the major system to match my cards with the 00-99 words that I have already chosen, thus maximizing carry-over:
clubs = 01-13,
Diamonds = 21-33 (nut - mummy), etc.
That would definitely carry the skill over, but so many people use PAO for cards that I just figured it was best to be safe and hop on the bandwagon, at least at first.
I started timing myself today, really trying to put the images in loci and remember them (rather than just using the cards like “flashcards” and trying to memorize what they stand for).
Improving slightly - Full deck 7 days ago was 14 mins, now I’m down to 8:58. Still slow compared to you lot, but not a bad improvement in a week - he tells himself!!..
Question for those who use 52 image/ 52 loci - Do you just picture your people in each loci, or do you picture them doing their corresponding actions to strengthen the image?
You’re doing really well. How many decks of cards do you practice per day?
I always gave there some action. For example, dog was barking at some object in the current locus, and so on. As I switched to 2 images per one loci, it’s something like PAO (but I know, it’s not). First image, action, and second image.
Being fairly new to this, I have toyed with the idea of trying different methods as some people (including yourself) seem to be very successful with the 52 loci.
I practice on the way to and from work and occasionally before I go to bed, so usually 2-3 decks a day, but I only have 4 journeys at the moment, so I think using them daily isn’t doing me any favours if other images still remain. I plan to create more at some point, which I think will help!
One thing that I do find myself doing to cement the images into my head is going back 3 or 4 locis after each PAO to keep it in my head, so, for example:-
Create PAO for loci 5
Create PAO for loci 6 (& revisit loci 5)
Create PAO for loci 7 (& revisit 6 & 5)
I realise that this is slowing down my time, but I think it is necessary for me as a beginner otherwise the images will slip! Do you do this? Or have you ever? I am hoping I will get to a point when I will not need to do this!
No, it really is a great improvement in your time. You’re slow compared to us because we’ve been doing it for ages, I think I progressed much slower than you are!
I had this problem as a beginner, too. It was suggested to me it was just a confidence issue, turned out it was, I tried to do a full deck without reviewing and had it no problem, all I had to do was put a little bit more focus into my images. If you’re forgetting images, there are 3 possible problems (assuming you’re confident):
Lack of focus
Going too fast
Lack of memorability
As focus and memorability fall, the harder an image is to remember. More attention+more creative and exciting images = easy to remember, I mean, could you forget the image of Hayley Williams pole dancing with a bikini on?
Don’t get us wrong, sometimes it is hard to remember a few images and you end up stumped, what I do in those situations is scan through my 00-99 PAO list in my mind, and it hits you once you get to the right image.
Paris Hilton was wearing a diaper and drinking from toilet in the hall this morning. That did it for me.
When I used the terms “perfect recall” earlier, it was because I called the cards out in order. Now that I have a second deck, it’s easier.
Times for today: 21 Cards in :52, then :59 immediately after, so I decided to add 3 more.
Haven’t broken a minute yet with 24, but I bet I will within the next 90 minutes. (24 cards is decidedly more difficult than 21. 52 will be a real challenge.) I’m adding cards rather than starting with all of them because staring at cards and trying to remember them seems like a waste of time and frankly bad practice because I’m not practicing moving through the Loci quickly and it would force me to review, to boot.
When you guys memorize a deck, do you sit back and walk through them again before reconstructing the second deck? I’m going to try that for the next 90 minutes. I haven’t yet, but it seems like it might be useful.
Edit: Starting to try the PA method. It’s easier, probably because the images don’t need to be ‘forced’ like one must do sometimes with actions and objects not amenable to combination. PAO makes for more interesting images, but strangely, they are less memorable to me on average, it appears. (Even though I’ve only tried the PA method twice). I think I’ll stick to it.
Anyhow, here’s another question:
When you imagine your images, about how far away, in feet (or meters for you Brits) are you from them? I ask because it is much easier for me to imagine from afar, like a dream, but I think that may be less effective (which is why it is so much easier on my brain).
I think that you are spot on with your assessment of it too. I know for a fact that I need to change a few of the actions (even though some people say not to do this), as they are not strong enough for me to recall instantly.
I also need to change all three PAO’s for 7 spades & 7 Clubs, who I use Charlie Chaplin and Sherlock Holmes for. I keep getting them mixed up, plus twirling a can and looking through a magnifying glass are such weak, bland/forgettable actions for me to recall with ease!!
I want to wait until I can as least get under 5 mins before I take the next step in creating PAO for 0-99!!
Can I ask Hype, did you incorporate the PAOs for your cards into your 0-99 or do you have 99 fresh ones. If you did incorporate them, how did you go about doing this? I’m assuming you didn’t just number them 0-52 and then continue from there?..
Times for today: 21 Cards in :52, then :59 immediately after, so I decided to add 3 more.
Haven’t broken a minute yet with 24, but I bet I will within the next 90 minutes. (24 cards is decidedly more difficult than 21. 52 will be a real challenge.) I’m adding cards rather than starting with all of them because staring at cards and trying to remember them seems like a waste of time and frankly bad practice because I’m not practicing moving through the Loci quickly and it would force me to review, to boot.[/QUOTE]
I’ll give you the same advice as Huggy - go for broke and try to memorise a whole deck without worrying about time. Take as long as you need.
I can see the benefit of what you’re doing, but you’re going to get to a point eventually where you can’t memorise a full deck in the short time you’re giving yourself and get frustrated. I think it’s better to learn to memorise a full deck slowly and build up the speed, rather than memorising small sections of a deck quickly and building up to a full deck at the same speed.
[QUOTE]
When you guys memorize a deck, do you sit back and walk through them again before reconstructing the second deck? I’m going to try that for the next 90 minutes. I haven’t yet, but it seems like it might be useful.[/QUOTE]
When I go for recall, I just start at the beginning. I put the deck I’ve just memorised down, take the new deck, and go back to the first locus in my journey and then work forward from there. I believe, though, that in competition you’ll have five minutes for a whole deck, so after the first memorisation, you’ll have a few minutes to review before you have to recall.
I’m always up close, probably no more than a couple of feet away; enough for me to see their whole body and what they’re doing and no further. I’m not sure this is one of the things that will be harming your time, but a too wide perspective might cause you to get images in the wrong places as you get loci interference since you’re not only focusing on one of them at a time. Some people imagine that they’re tiny in their palaces to fit more image in, other make the images tiny, so I don’t think that what you’re doing will be seriously detrimental to you.
[quote=Huggy]
I think that you are spot on with your assessment of it too. I know for a fact that I need to change a few of the actions (even though some people say not to do this), as they are not strong enough for me to recall instantly.[/QUOTE]
Don’t worry about it, I swapped out a few things, too. I haven’t seen people tell you not to change your PAO…in fact, I’ve seen all the knowledgeable members on here encourage it if it’s not working for you!
I find that images don’t always have to be exciting to be memorable, it just has to have a personal connection for you. I’ve seen every episode of House, and plenty of them more than once - my 8 of Hearts is Hugh Laurie limping with a cane, and since it’s such a familiar image to me, I find it easy to remember.
If you’re getting CC and SH mixed up, might I recommend you a TV series? BBC’s Sherlock. It’s my favourite crime drama and a fantastic take on the Sherlock Holmes stories; they take the stories and apply them to 21st century London; Sherlock Holmes is portrayed by Benedict Cumberbatch, very distinctive from Charlie Chaplin. He’s my 8 of Spades. I recommend it for both memory and entertainment.
(I also go to the medical school that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle went to, where he based Sherlock Holmes off of one of his professors, Joseph Bell. Fun fact!)
That’s a fair enough decision, cards was the very first thing I learned to memorise, too. But I scrapped my original Dominic system (for which I had only made 52 images) for a brand new 00-99 PAO, due to me making the system weirdly and it messing up when I tried to integrate it. Although, there’s no reason you can’t expand yours to a 00-99 from a 00-52. It just didn’t work for me personally because I made it difficult for myself! (I grouped them by theme instead of translating it directly to a number).
Find a way of integrating your card images into numbers, it doesn’t matter how you do it, to be honest. Integrating them just saves you the time from making a brand new list of 00 - 99. You could make a 0-9 number-letter code and attach the images based on that (I know this is what Josh does/did. He only has/had the ace - 10 in his number system). Ace had a value of 1, so Ace of Clubs became 31 (suit goes first), 2 of Clubs = 32, 3 of Clubs = 33, and so on to the 10 of clubs (which was 40; 30 + 10), I believe he used a number-letter code similar to Dominic’s
This is just one of many ways to do it, mine is below, perhaps you’ll find a totally different way that works for you!
So it’s the other way around for me. I made the 00-99 list first, and then chose ones out of that to be the cards. Clubs became 21-33, Diamonds; 41-53 (D = 4), Spades; 61-73 (S = 6), Hearts; 81-93 (H = 8 ). 21 being the Ace of Clubs, 33 being the King of Clubs; it progresses linearly between the two numbers and it’s the same for all the other suits.
Clubs is the only one whose range isn’t based on the letter it starts with, and this is because C = 3 - if I were to do this it would overlap with Diamonds, so I just brought the Clubs back 10 and started from there.
I also watch the BBCs version of Sherlock that you refer to (they are making us wait way too long for the next series for my liking ;), but for some reason, it just doesn’t come as easily as the others. I will mess about with a few of the images and see where it takes me.
Thus far, I have only thought about using 0-99 images, but in all honesty, that is about as far as I have got! I will get around to it eventually, I’m sure. Do you find that you use it often? If so, for what sort of things?
Please excuse my ignorance on it, but as previously mentioned, I am quite new to this.
