ML World Tour 2021 almost over- YOUR feedback

Hi everyone,

the World Tour 2021 is almost done. Only the AEO and some finals left. Then we will see a complete overall ranking for the first time, which I find very exciting!

https://memoryleague.com/#!/world-tour/world-rankings

The idea was to establish an ongoing thing and having a World Ranking list that works quite similar to the World ranking in tennis. Meaning that your World ranking points for the first Season of 2021 will be replaced with the World ranking points you gain in the first Season of 2022 and so on.

It would be cool to collect your feedback on all relevant topics related to the World Tour.
What changes should be made?
What was good?
What was bad?
How can it be improved?

All feedback is welcome.

10 Likes

I really like it, it’s great to have a well structured ML tournament and ranking. I partecipated with pleasure to every stage except for the American Open.
The only thing missing in my opinion are World Records. Also the final (ML World Championship) would feel a lot more official if done in presence.
Next time I also would like to see more mongolians taking part, are they afraid of it?

6 Likes

There isn’t a thing like they are afraiding, I guess you are way too confident and proud that’s it.

Note - they are not playing that doesn’t mean they afraid, they just don’t wanna play. So don’t think it again.

5 Likes

I think the World Tour so far was a great new concept to improve the digital competitive landscape in the world of memory sports. :slight_smile: In my opinion the Opens including the Qualifiers worked awesomely well for firsts! :slight_smile: I’m a big fan of it and I hope it will become a yearly thing.

What in my opinion could be improved:

  1. The League Seasons are still a problem. Even at this point we still don’t even have a winner for season 12… once again the top athletes showed us, that they aren’t able to play this many matches and therefore I renew my request to keep it simpler with just a final between 1st of Division 1A and 1st Division 1B, hoping that my opposers have changed their mind in the meanwhile about keeping the current playoffs.

  2. Aside from the time zone differences I personally felt like the Opens didn’t feel very regional. I know it’s really hard to create such atmospheres at remote events. Nevertheless I would love to see some things tested out such as:

  • have the maybe 4 best athletes from the very region the open features directly qualified and therefore only up to 6 others directly qualified by the world ranking, so that additionally stream viewers with convenient time zones have a guaranteed pack of “local heroes” to cheer for. Maybe this could increase the audience.
  • have at least one surprise event that somehow supports the very regional athmosphere. For instance a surprise event in Images style with 30 different kinds of typical Asian/Oceanian food during the Asian/Oceanian-Open.

Maybe others have addional or better ideas, worth trying to increase the atmosphere.

  1. I personally love the surprise events in general. Maybe it could be considered to have them from Round of 16 onwards? Or would that result in too much work load for the organizers, in particular for Simon Orton?

  2. I feel like the streaming frequency has dropped a bit low. Johannes doesn’t have enough support from us others. In my opinion those streams have been a great addition to memory sports and might be an essential pillar of future growth of memory sports. Basically we could say that the twitch stream is still in need for someone to replace Konstantin. I feel like while there where Johannes, Konstantin and Florian we had a nice level of coverage, but ever since Konstantin left due to other memory sports commitments it seems to me that a reliable third member is missing the crew.

3 Likes

Great points mentioned already. I will add mine soon, too.

Btw, I am sure Andrea’s comment was meant completely tongue-in-cheek and as a friendly taunt. An :wink: emoji would fit perfectly there. I think it would be fantastic if more members of the strong Mongolian team competed also on ML. They had an impressive team performance at the IAM WMC 2019 in the classical events and that was even without Munkhshur, Enkhshur and Enkhtuya. Hoping for future participation :grin:.

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I also think that starting from quarter finals considering that we are 7/8 in the top divisions is too much, too many matches to play. Doing only the final is too much though.

A compromise could be starting from semifinals for the final part of the seasons.

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Hi,

As for feedback it is always easy to come up with criticism and ideas to improve, at the same time I would like to begin by saying thank you for everyone involved in running the World Tour and the tournaments. During the pandemic it is a great thing to have!

That said, for me, it sadly gets rather less interesting than more over time. I hardly watch any streams anymore.

Issue 1: Playing and finishing a season
The commitment of some players including some of the top players (which I am not one of anymore) is too low. There are too soft rules of how much you need to play, so weeks into a season often few matches are played and finals of the prior season are not done even when the next season is finished.

As much as admire the performances of Alex and Andrea, I probably wont watch them playing once again when I hardly remember ( :grimacing:) the season.

Possible solution: 40% of the regular matches have to be played by half season, 100% by end of season. Very few exceptions, no extensions. All finals have to be played within a week after a season.

Players not doing that get a warning, players not doing that again get banned for the next season, if it happens a third time they get banned for a year. Also players not finishing should get relegated to the next lower division and not start in their prior division anymore, including top players.

Issue 2: Worlds
I know the pandemic still limits international travel which is preventing a great live event. Still, the World Championships is listed as “January 2022 TBD” and there is no word about it. Will it happen? Online or offline?

Having a shiny and attractive final event would keep me more motivated than a big question mark.

Issue 3: League and Tournaments:
Currently League is an easier way to qualify for a tournament. Two somewhat different things are intermingled. Someone mostly interested in the tournament will still sign up for the league to score points or a safer spot in the actual event despite actually not wanting to play weekly.

This set up seems unusual for individual sports. There certainly will be exceptions, but as far as I know in most sports (including individual sports) leagues are for teams and tournaments for individuals. Probably that happens for a reason.

Issue 4: Unfair qualification
This has come up in threads (@mohamed22 commented on it for example). I personally got lucky so far to avoid these matches while others have been hit very hard. What do I talk about? Unseeded athletes with world class performances - see for example Vishvaa, Naoki for Asian and also some now for the African-Europeans.

These players did not play the season and start in round one of the qualifier. But those played the qualifiers and got ranked are seeded on their performance. Instead of hoping for a fair matchup in particular for those well ranked might face an extremely strong opponent early on.

Main Suggestion
How about changing the system completely?

Lets have the league for teams (which we can call clans to align to esports)!

A team is formed of up to five people. In the weekly match against a different team, three people have to play. The match has to be played that week, no extension! Therefore top players can have a break and the team pressure will help not to lose a match by not competing completely).

Young “shooting stars” do not have to play all the leagues up but certainly will be “signed” by the top teams quickly. You might still score individual points for the Season Scores Leaderboard for individual qualification to tournaments.

The tournaments happen more separately and might include 32 instead of 16 people. I like Kevins suggestion of for example reserving half of the field for the respective region. Qualifiers could be fairer by having losers brackets. For the case of shooting stars are returning legends with no scores that would rank them, one loss against them does not end it early for you.

Memory League in general
I like to repeat my suggestion to please consider refreshing the user interface, have a way simpler registration and “onboarding” and more visual front page.

For example there could be a weekly updated short video by Hannes and others about the “forecast” for this weeks league matches or an upcoming tournament. I could see this attracting way more people to actually follow and watch events.

Due to workshops and courses I give I send a couple of hundred people per year to Memory League and very few stick, since the initial hurdle is too high to even get started and noone ever watches the top athletes battle, since they do not understand what is happening, where is the difference between league, final, qualifers, tournament, regular match etc.

Again, still amazing to have this platform and also these online events. Thank you!
I would be a dream come true to see this grow bigger, more professional and gaining the attention it deserves.

8 Likes

Hey everyone,

thanks for the input.
@Philodoof I agree that the schedule is super tight for those who play many matches and we need to consider skipping the Quarterfinals. One thing that crashed the schedule this year was the cheating issue after Season 11 that made it necessary to replay some matches. We never caught up on this. However, even if that would not have happened it would have been likely anyone that we run into a delay since I wasn’t available to push things forward in the second half of the year. Skipping the Quarterfinals would reduce these matches from 7 to 3 and that would save us 1-2 weeks at least.

@Boris
Issue 1: Having more strict rules when a specific portion of your matches have to be played is a good point. We need to be more strict with this.

Issue 2: I agree.

Issue 3: You can not qualify for the Slam if you haven’t played all your matches in the league. Did that happen?

Issue 4: I think this is more or less a problem of the first year. If things become more and more based on the World Rankings this won’t happen so often anymore. However, it can and will still happen sometimes that some matches are “not fair”. This is something in the character of knock-out tournaments.

Teams instead of a League for individuals: That would be a major change of what we are just trying to establish here. All that we build up with the WR would need to be changed drastically. Of course, this is not a reason per se to not try your proposal but should be considered! Things sometimes need to be given some time to develop before changing them too early. However, I like the idea. Maybe that could be a new thing while the individual seasons would be reduced to two seasons/year there could be a team season too.
How is your idea about forming the teams? I see the following options:

  1. National teams only that are formed by people from the same country. More than one team could be allowed
  2. Free choice for everyone: People could just gather together and create their teams independent of nationalities
  3. Free but with restrictions +random: All potential participants could be sorted into groups based on their overall performance. I.e. 5 groups. A team consists 5 randomly chosen players (one from each group)
  4. Free but with restrictions and Captains choice: All potential participants could be sorted into groups based on their overall performance. I.e. 5 groups.
    Defining the Captain:
    a) All competitors from a fixed group are captains. They choose competitors from the other groups one by one.
    b) Captains are also random per group. I.e. we have 75 competitors in 5 groups so ideally 15 competitors/group. 15 teams would be created. At first in each group, three captains would be randomly drawn. The 15 captains then proceed like described above. They can not choose from their own group and only 1 from the other groups.
3 Likes

I’ll chime in here too to add to what @Boris said. Do we know when the World Championship will be? Those of us with busy lives will have some serious logistical matters to work out to ensure we can attend, and we need notice for this. And how will we resolve the obvious time zone discrepancy issues? Because, no matter what, someone will be at a disadvantage.

I also love the idea of having a team/clan aspect to this. I don’t think it necessarily has to be geographically restricted, though I’m open to that as well. It could be a tricky thing though, if we have teams that want to get rid of a player, or a player leaving for another team. It could create rivalries (which is probably a good thing), but it could also cause some tension or animosity between athletes. We should do what we can do avoid that as our sport, while it is growing, is still relatively niche and we don’t want to alienate anyone from our already small and seemingly tightly knit community.

3 Likes

Could also be tough for us in Canada… because who else is there? Perhaps an alliance with the States would be in order.

To steal an idea from softball… I kind of like the Captains idea. Perhaps we could have some div 1 players fill out their teams. :sunglasses:

2 Likes

I got a different approach of team
After watching ipl(indian premier league cricket)
8 teams
8-10 players per team
8 captains
The captains will be given some game points for auction
So we shall have the auction for players
I guess this would be like a league
8 fantasy teams
With specific names

This would be interesting
What’s your opinion friends?

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I love it… like fantasy football but for cool people instead of nerds.

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I’d love to get involved in the teams part. It would be a great motivation to find a way to keep up training (I couldn’t join Season 13 due to work, but maybe I was just gassed).

To avoid problems with connecting it to rankings, maybe it could be just arranged a long the lines of the regional tournaments, where individual matches are aggregated in terms of the team. Either way, if it could get worked on the technical side, it’d be a great way to get to know others out there and share experiences, hash out ideas on developing new systems, tools, etc., while also doing it “for the team.”

1 Like

What is missing is…
Multiplayer events. It is possible to make a ranking for teams as well.

2 Likes

Something else that might be missing in the current concept (or overall in ML) is a fast-paced (a few hours in total, for the ones reaching the final stages), massive-scale tournament. A knock-out tournament with hundreds of competitors, each round best-of-three (one single discipline). If you don’t show up on time, the match starts anyway and you’re out (no mercy). No arbiters or video until the final couple of rounds.

Probably challenging on the technical side of things but it might be interesting to have a tournament open to all, with a low bar for entry.

6 Likes

I disagree with banning players from competitions for reasons other than using bad language and cheating as I believe that the majority of the people in the memory league are good people and if they get banned they will not feel good and they may feel wronged.

And relegating top athletes or anybody from their position and asinging them an inferior position even though they are better than most of the players is wrong and a person who does this once will have to face those consequences permanantly which I think will cause emotional problems for that person who is relegated specially if he is a top athlete.

I have read that the Art of Memory or Memory League need to be more strict with a specific portion of matches need to be played,

I suggest that Memory League does not be more strict on than it needs to be and the punishments which will be given to the athletes be posted beforehand with enough time for discussion because there may be punishment(s) which may not be good.

Yes, And suppose if the dates of the WMC are almost identical to the Memory League competitions then many athletes will not be able to attend and may get warnings unnecessarily and that may reduce the number of top memory athletes on this platform and if this happens again then what will happen can be imagined.

And I hope that no one gets banned and gets a bad name in the memory community unnecessarily and one way to prevent this would be not to implement the proposed solution in issue 1 and instead implement a different solution if @Simon wants.

Note- I believe that Simon is the owner of the Memory League and the Art of Memory which is why I have posted his name above.

And I admire how the site(The Art of Memory) has been run for many years it could have been a paid site but it has been kept free at it’s owners expense for 10 years and I hope that this continues along with the core and some additional values of the Memory League,

And,

Have a Nice Day.

@aicreator, have you taken part in the League? Not saying that your opinion isn’t valid if not, but many competitors are frustrated with people not replying, not making it easy to schedule matches, etc.

4 Likes

No, Although I have played Memory League games in multiplayer with others but I have never played in a memory competition,

And,

Cheers.

That entry bar could be IAM level 2.

I really like this idea, it seems like Online Competition in general is harder to schedule/ set time aside compared to live events that were in the past.

-Having Multiple Competitions going on over the year sounds like a really fun idea!

What about having 2 or 3, to make it fair for others time zones?

In example, if we are 128 players, that would roughly be 7 rounds. best of 3 could perhaps make 18-21 games for someone.
That is do able in 2 to 3 hours. The discipline could be chosen randomly (either a Round Discipline or for each pair)

What about having arbeiters/video for the last remaining 16 players?

What about World ranking, should you get points BEFORE arbeiters/ video or only after? It is mostly likely that the better performing athletes will continue play untill last rounds; so, perhaps top 32/16 in that ranking would be supervised.


-This could possible be even a monthly thing, since only 1 day out of a month.

Possible to make variations out of this, such as team competitions too.

1 day event is an exciting idea, this could be a thing =)

Is it not possible to have 1 National Competition, Memory League event a year? Or Half a year thing?

The most fun idea would be to choose your team yourself, but that can make Divisions more difficult. It also depends on how the Multiplayer event Playstyle will look like. If it is 2 v 2 or 3 v 3 , or even 5 v 5. Thoose could have picking pools.
On a best of 3, a pool of 6 total picks would be cool, with a max pick of 2 of each event.
(Names-International names count as samae event, thus x2 Names, x2 International Names or 1 Names, 1 International Names)
-Then we have 1 ban for each team, so you can remove 1 event from the other team.
Team (1) chooses whom they should face against.
Like: Player A vs Player A. Player B vs Player B. The winner of a Game gives 1 Win-Point.
Then Team (2) chooses discipline.
Then each team has 2 Shift’s. Meaning if they don’t like the match up, they just shift the Competitiors.

Every other game the Chooser of players and disciplines changes.
(Team (1) Chooses Players)
(Team (2) Chooses Disciplines)
Example:
Team Lars and Susanne
VS
Team Niklas and Vishvaa

(Team (1) Bans 1 Names from Team (2) )
(Team (2) Bans 1 Cards from Team (1)

First game:
Lars vs Niklas (Niklas chooses Numbers)
Susanne vs Vishvaa ( Vishvaa chooses Words)

Second game:
Vishvaa vs Lars (Lars chooses Numbers)
Niklas vs Susanne (Susanne chooses Numbers)

Third Game:
Susanne vs Vishvaa (Chooses Images)
Lars vs Niklas ( chooses Names)

-This time Lars does not want to play Names vs Niklas, so he decides to shift with Susanne. She is onboard with it, and looks like this:

Actuall Third Game:
Lars vs Vishvaa (Chooses Images)
Susanne vs Niklas ( chooses Names)


I gave this example with actual athletes, because that made it more relateable example. And the example above were players whom either participated or shown intress in 2 v 2 format.


3v3 and 5v5 alike, can be made with similar examples. It should not be too hard.
In the past World Championships, there have been Teams of 3, but not actuall team playing matches, just accumalative scores, which is one aspect of a team.
There has not been an official Team competition in Memory League. In my opinion, it is more fun working together in a Match like this tho.


If players choose team for themselves ( which would be my prefered choice) there would be a need for a new Ranking, since you could not ONLY base a Teams performance on Individual play’s in the past, but it can give a great starting point.


A team can consist of 5 players, but each match be play out in either 2v2 or 3v3 style.
Then, there would be playing requirements for each individual, ( maybe 1 or 2 matches / season)

-Each player would get Individual Season Score.
And the team would advance as a whole.

(With more ways to rank as an individual player)

At the end of the year, top 8/ 4 teams advances to Worlds, and play there for the World Memory Team Champion

And, 1 Worlds for individual Athlete, top 16. Based on various rankings, including performance in Team.


Having a 1 day Tournament could be a good start to create Initial Rankings/ Division for a team.


Team competitions is probably something many is seeking after.:fire:

1 Like