Lucid Dreaming + Memory Palace

Recently,
I have been thinking a lot about how to use sleep to the advantage of memorisers.
So my question is, how to start lucid dreaming?

In theory, you could visit all of your memory palaces and even forgotten information and restore them.
You can study and review while you sleep and you can even build more palaces.
Even make your images stronger.

Anyone with any information on lucid dreaming, please email me at: [email protected]

That’s a really interesting concept. I’ve experienced lucid dreaming a handful of times but it was always when I wasn’t focused on mnemonics, so I didn’t think to combine the two.

To lucid dream, start by keeping a dream journal. I know it’s boring and seems pointless at first but it’s extremely important especially initially. Make sure to keep a notebook and pen by your bed so you can write them down before even getting up. Write down details. This is signaling the importance of your dreams to your mind and making it more inclined to remember them. You can also try replacing your dream journal with a memory palace journal, but I don’t have too much experience in that field – my mind is often too far from receptive pre-coffee to do much :P.

Second, start performing daily reality checks. These range from flicking light switching, to examine your hands, to jumping up and down (gravity test), to staring at your reflection. You can set an alarm on your phone to remind you to test roughly every three hours or so in order to build the habit. These tests are the key. Eventually, you’ll perform a reality test in your dream and inevitably your results will be inconsistent with your waking life. When that happens, you’re in. However, if you get too excited, or too aware, you’ll wake up. :frowning:

Also, stay tuned-in to reoccurring features and characters in your dreams. If, when reviewing your dream journal, you notice that your grandmother seems to give you advice relatively frequently in your dream life start performing a reality check whenever your grandmother makes an appearance in your waking life. This is essentially just a more in-depth reality check, but once you have a few of these set up you’ll be able to turn off that phone alarm!

Lastly, the most effective – also the most demanding – technique involves setting an alarm to go off after roughly six hours of sleep. At this point, you’ll get up, and read some information regarding lucid dreaming. A good practice is to review your dream journal. Make sure you only read for roughly 15 minutes and then go back to bet. This technique is 100% the most effective, but, as I said, requires a lot more from the dreamer.

I’m curious as to your results combining the two mental practices. Keep us posted and happy dreaming!

an easy one I read about too, is always wear a watch, and when you check the time, check it twice. If the time is the same both times, you are awake. In a dream, checking it a second time will change the time it shows, or change the watch you are wearing.

As for the initial question, I think it might work, but I can’t tell for sure.

The thing that makes me doubt is that you will essentially be battling your own brain. When looking at reports of lucid dreaming, most will say that they can control their actions to a certain degree, few can have full control over their actions and even less can control the other “people” or the environment in the dream. I personally believe (at the lack of scientific research) that this has to do with awareness. I believe control and awareness are intwined, upping the control requires upping the awareness, and upping the awareness increases the risk of waking up.

Here is me a bit hypothesising on what could happen in the brain.
While the primary visual cortex in the brain is inactive (no outside stimuli = no activity), the visual association area is booming in activity as if it has a lot of images to register and analyze. What appears to be happening is that the brain repeatedly associates the images it creates itself, that spawns an emotional reaction in the limbic system (emotions) while the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (logic) is just as asleep as you are. That causes the strange things you see in dreams, all emotions speaking to themselves.

That is also where the problem lies, you have to control that. Good images will trigger emotions, and before you know it, your entire memory palaces goes up in flames, is flooded with bunnies or ends up with Brad Pitt running around naked instead of obediently chopping the wooden chair to pieces with an axe like he should.

In the end, all I can do is think about what might happen. I am eager to hear about what you experience when trying it!

But what if you don’t control it?
I have been doing a lot of research and @JonsMind has provided a lot of incredibly powerful information (much of which I will be using soon).
Something I came across was that, if you focus on a memory or a dream that you want to have, then you will wake up in that dream.
In that same sense, you can trick your brain into thinking the memory palace is that dream or that stage, by first implanting that seed.
From there, you can go on to not control that environment, but you will be in it nonetheless.
So, as you mentioned before, there will be a lot of ‘‘NPC’s’’ roaming around your brain, but I do believe the information placed will still be there because you have put a select importance around them.
That is the idea I had a long time ago, but I didn’t know whether or not it worked.
The theory seems reasonable, because if you can’t control where your brain goes, you should guide it in the right direction.
I assume with some practice you can keep seeding it.
A lot of the time, people describe their dreams like inception, where they create their own dreams and they are flying in their own landscapes. Like Minecraft.
However, this is like Minecraft where you already made the stage and you are just playing on it.

Like one of the mind palaces that I have is on a playground.*
So in my Lucid Dream, I would set up that seed to go to that mind palace but thinking about it before I go to sleep.
By interacting with it as I am falling asleep.
Then, when I am in the dream, I will be in that palace but there will be a lot of moving pieces.
So the dream will still be alive and even more so in the dream, but now you just have kids playing on the loci.
But here is the important part, I do believe these ‘‘NPC’s’’ will be doing things on the important things because they are important.
So I believe this will reinforce it and will even show you things you may have forgotten.
Like some kids are ganging up around something, but you can only see it a little bit.

Also, in my memory palaces I have attendants.
People who I trust unquestionably (in my life) that guide throughout my memory palace.
I think they would also play a role in coming alive.
So they can move things around more easily and give you more control.
Kinda like an AI, where they do things so you can focus on the bigger picture.

*https://artofmemory.com/forums/how-to-memorize-textbooks-or-heavily-information-dense-material-update

Very interesting :slight_smile:

I hope it works out and becomes a nice addition to the known techniques! I’d love to hear about if it works :smiley:

Will keep you posted.
I already made an entry for the known techniques for textbooks, if you could give that a look through and see how it sounds, that would be awesome.

In my dreams, every time I try to do a reality check my mind prevents me from doing it. :smiley:
for instance, if try to check the time my watch get or I hit it into something accidentally,
or when I check my phone It falls or someone steals it.

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I’ve been exploring lucid dreaming and astral projection recently and it is awesome. I tried using a memory palace to record my experiences without getting out of bed, and it works, but it requires more brainpower that I have available when I wake up. Now I grab my phone and make a voice note. That seems to be enough to pull the memories into the waking state.

Hey Killie154,

I recommend you get the book: ,Exploring the world of lucid dreaming"

By one of the founders of this exploration: Stephan LaBerge with the cowriters

Howard Rheingold and Lynne Levitan…

What’s the value of visiting your memory palace when you dream. You can spend as much time as you like there when you are awake?

I hear a lot of enthusiastiam around town on this subject but no clear evidence that it does anything for you beyond the lucid dreaming itself.

Hello ZVUV,
your
quote:
“I hear a lot of enthusiastiam around town on this subject but no clear evidence that it does anything for you beyond the lucid dreaming itself.”

Well, what exactly do you think is the potential of lucid dreaming?

  • In my oppinion it is a natural and intrinsic source of creativity.

Why not use this “creative mode” for something that you like?
And that is valuable to you - like a very reliable memory pallace.

To be honest with you - my personal memory pallace is still
under construction but I deem it helpful to integrate as many
states of the mind as possible. After all: lucid dreaming is just
a state of the mind, right?
My personal goal is that of life long learning in a systematic way
and in order to make that fruitful and engaging - why neglect a
state of the mind?

Let me ask you a personal question:
Did you ever have a very intensive lucid dream?

Yes, my question could be understood as rhetorical.
But actually it wouldn´t make much sense if I was
continuing here although you may be lacking only a single
little hint of information.

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I am totally on board with exploring one’s mental states and taking advantage of whatever you find. And yes, there’s a lot yet to find out.

I totally commend you for taking up memory training and looking for creative ways to advance. With that kind of enthusiasm and energy I’m sure you will have achievements.

If you are really interested in experiencing Lucid Dreams for it’s own sake, I can see investing the effort and I understand the interest.

But if it’s to further the end of developing your memory, I am skeptical whether it’s worth the effort, which is not trivial, and the time might be better spent improving your own conscious abilities to form images.

Lucid Dreaming and Memory Training are in a “fad” phase right now. That doesn’t mean they have no merit. It means there’s a lot of bullshit out there. A lot of people making broad unfounded claims. A lot people emotionally invested. They want to believe and they do. Language like “amazing” “supercharge” “superpowers” These are red flags.

The claims around Lucid Dreaming are such. Wild and unsubstantiated. Rife with amazing anecdotes but no careful measured studies that show it makes a significant difference in one’s abilities as a mentalist.

You set out to develop a trained memory and now you’re off on a tangent. One that require some effort. It’s up to you, but I’m skeptical of what’s on offer. Especially since there are simple techniques to greatly improve the quality of your memories other than depending entirely on visual images.

Memory training is not bullshit. I know. I use it and it works. Not only for me, it’s been used across history and across cultures and it produces results you could test in a lab.

But it’s now a fad. It gets simplified and dumbed down. Stripped to a few simple tricks. Think of a ridiculous image - associate with the information. It works. It works quickly but for most it doesn’t persist well enough and as soon as you try and go for any quantity. One makes rapid progress and then stalls when one tries to get serious. Exactly like the diet fads which have one trick that gives a quick result. For some, it might exactly what they need but people come in all sizes and you have to tailor methods to suit.

Lucid Dreaming and Memory Training are in a “fad” phase right now. That doesn’t mean they have no merit. It means there’s a lot of bullshit out there. A lot of people making broad unfounded claims. A lot people emotionally invested. They want to believe and they do. Language like “amazing” “supercharge” “superpowers” These are red flags.

I agree that there are a lot of ‘exaggerated claims’ in the world of “Lucid Dreaming” or “Meditation” or “Out of Body Experience” or “Near Death Experience”,etc.

The west is now obsessed with things like ‘Lucid dreaming’, ‘Meditation’,etc. But interestingly, in the east,we have been aware of the strength of “meditation”,“lucid dreaming” for thousand of years.

Interestingly, whereas the buddhist tradition knew about the existence of lucid dreaming since the time of Buddha(and even before that,as Hindu tradition was aware of it,too),the western science completely denied its existence for a long time. The western science discover scientific evidence of lucid dreaming in 1975! Very recently!! No wonder sometimes,we have to also bypass what science blindly claims! :slight_smile: Science takes time to catch up with the ‘truth’!

For many Buddhist meditators(the advanced ones),Lucid Dreaming is a very very important area! They claim that they ‘shape’ their mind via Lucid dreaming for preparing to face ‘death’.

Advanced level lucid dreamers or meditators know and have experienced that Lucid Dreaming is a very powerful means to change one’s brain/mind!

You may not achieve ‘superpowers’ via things like “Lucid Dreaming”,“Meditation”. But you can surely achieve things that are ‘almost’ like ‘superpower’, “amazing” with them. It is like ‘mnemonics’. With ‘mnemonics’,you can achieve ‘superpower like memory’.

Now, if someone claims that with ‘mnemonics’,you will not be able to achieve amazing memory, well , then, the problem lies in him! Either he is not at all experienced in ‘mnemonic’ techniques, or he is needlessly talking against it from ignorance.

I totally agree when it comes to
those red flags as you´ve called those labels: “Suerpowers”, and the like.
For those words might imply that there are instantaneous results.
This seemes very deluding. Both lucid dreaming and the memory palace aquire
a lot of effort and endurance.
But when it comes to finding solutions from deep within: - your dream perception -
it seems quite disregarding of you. In the book: “DREAMS OF AWAKENING”
by “Charly Morley” it is described that one can communicate any question to ones own
subconcsious mind and ask therefore for solutions to “the lucid dream” itself.
I hope my wording makes sense.
A Lucid Dream to me is the construction of ones own mind and therefore
it is one´s own brains or minds construction one is surrounded by.
This is quite amazing. But the actual applicability of lucid dreams in a more
sophisticated way - using it for a memory palace seems far away. Or in other
words - in order to achieve such a high command over ones lucid dreams
that one can use it as freely as one wishes there is a lot of work to be spent
beforehand.
I agree: It is probably worth building up a Memory Palace before one should
even consider incorporating the realm of lucid dreams.

But going back to my first recommendation: The book: “Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming”
by “Stephan LaBerge” what you find here is first and foremost a detailed instruction how to
relax and meditate. And that is a beneficial pursuit regarless of the outcomes.

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To: elitely Mamunur Rashid,

I agree with you on the topic of lucid dreaming - being ignored in the west for centuries.
But meditation on the other side has been widely explored in the west as well -
unfortunately - since the beginning of industrialization it was more and more ignored.

The memory palace is what I would call a visual meditation of knowledge (although encoded into images). It goes back to Simonides of Keos who was a contemporary of Socrates and is therefore at least as old as buddhism or confucianism.

At these times, when Simonides was highly influencial, the nobel citicens of ancient Greece
have even arranged complete buildings according the principles of memory.

And that is in my humble oppinion an idea worth spreading.

The west has explored the lucid dreams a bit earlier than in 1975. The word lucid dreaming was coined by Frederick van Eeden who lived from 1860 - 1932. But even this scholars work was ignored at first.

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But when it comes to finding solutions from deep within: - your dream perception -
it seems quite disregarding of you. In the book: “DREAMS OF AWAKENING”
by “Charly Morley” it is described that one can communicate any question to ones own
subconcsious mind and ask therefore for solutions to “the lucid dream” itself.

Right. We can meet our ‘subconscious’ mind during lucid dreaming. Dream is the only place where the subconscious mind gets very wide-open,it seems.

Infact,dream is a seriously fascinating part of human life!

Last week,I read the book “Dreaming Beyond Death”. The author points to the fact that many patients with terminal disease have ‘pre-death dreams’. This type of dreams prepare the patients to face death with peace and fearlessness.

Advanced level Buddhist meditators get ‘death’ signals in their dreams. And then,they prepare themselves to die! That is,they get hints in their dreams that they are gonna die soon! I would think,this is a crap talk if I didn’t see one of my close relatives accurately predicting his own death. After some visions in his dream,he gave up everything,lied in his bed,started to recite ‘mantras’ of his faith. And within two days,he died! All this happened in front of my eyes.

Shocked,I started to explore the world of dreams since then! And I found that humans do have ‘death visions’ in their dreams!!!

So many things,we still don’t understand about human brain and body! :slight_smile:

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Wow, this is pretty intensive stuff.

Thanks for sharing these personal informations.

I have a family member, too, who had a vision of “second sight” - that is the

person was dreaming of a death of a near relative. It was very frightning to

that person having that premonition but it came true.

Thanks for the book link, too.

What we still not understand and may be never will is that mystery of interconnectedness.
That we are all one.

One of my indian friends and mentors calles it the purusha.

The purusha is that still observer - which every pair of eyes has.

Every pair of eyes has “the power” of the observer.

This makes us all one in metaphorical sense.

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I am mostly a materialist and a skeptic , though I am heavily involved in ‘lucid dreams,meditation,dreams,near death experience,etc’. I still have hard time to accept the type of events that my relative had(though this is not the first time such event happened) as ‘mysterious’. I think,this type of event has an explaination. I believe,it is all about our ‘brain’. Looks like,brain creates the dreams of ‘pre-death’,because may be,our subconscious mind already realizes that we are gonna die soon(body sends the signal,may be!?!).

We do not yet understand the deeper mechanism of brain and body…That may be why,there are things that seem mysterious to us.

Btw,Buddha himself could realize that he was about to die after the food reaction he had! Interesting!

More specifically, and thank you for your input, I wasn’t going in with the intention of increasing my mental capabilities.
With lucid dreaming, it is relatively simple in the sense that you may be able to control your dreams.
And in some cases, you can “seed” your dream before you sleep and can “set” the place in which you dream.

Meaning, there is a chance that you can be in your memory palace and review information while you are sleeping.
Of which, was an attempt at me to take over the 8 hours in which my brain is dreaming and focus it on something I feel is important.

Sorry for the late reply (school and what not).

But I’m mainly using the basic principles of each and nothing more.
Hopefully that helped.

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I don’t doubt that lucid dreaming exists, and it seems reasonable to think that it offers access to parts of one’s mind or experience that are usually occulted.

I don’t challenge the value as an exploration of one’s inner self. I train my memory solely because I am interested. I’ve gotten through a professional career without much help from tecnique and while I wish I had had that then, there is no pressing need now. I too am interested in exploring my mind and seeing what I can do with it.

But when I ask what benefits this yields apart from the value of the exercise itself, I am told you can solve all sorts of problems, remold your character and solve great mysteries… It’s too much. It’s a Snake Oil sale. When I ask what “practical” results this technique facilitates. What concrete, demonstrable results are there, I get anecdotes about other people. These are bright red flags for bullshit.

Now, to be clear, just because something is being misrepresented, it doesn’t mean it’s all bullshit. But it does mean you have to look hard and skeptically to find the kernel.

The claim that one can simply remodel one’s personality, as if you were under the hood with a wrench and could just move things around at will. I dismiss as unfounded and absurd. This is a very big claim. It’s an extraordinary claim and it requires extraordinary evidence. Personality and habits are very hard to change. And for good reason. The brain protects itself and its habits. They are valuable. They represent your knowledge of the world. In memory work we find ourselves fighting this very barrier. The brain needs to forget, it resists taking on new baggage for no obvious reason. I need to memorize the squares up to 100? Really? I’m busy Get lost!

I can ask any question of my Lucid Dream. That would be interesting for sure. But what kind of answer would one get and would it be any wiser than the one I get when I’m awake? Can I ask my dream for the proof to Goldbach’s Conjecture? A famous unsolved problem. I doubt he knows any more on the subject than I do.

If I ask him about myself, why would he be any more honest, any less deceived than I am now.

There has been no end of these self-help/psycho/mystical that make you get better at everything.

Nobody knows what “better” person is. If people report finding themselves more fullfilled, or more aware after mastering this, there’s no way of assessing this or how long it lasts.

Is there any reliable evidence that Lucid Dreaming can improve any practical skill or help one acquire it faster? Not breathless anecdotes about other people reported by enthusiastic adherents.

LD has been around in the West for a long time. It was a fad about 25 years ago. Yet, I have not come across a single individual who told me that Lucid Dreaming changed his life. By now the results should be out. We should have had a generation of people who had benefited from this technique and wanted to bring others on board. Instead, it went away quietly until the next fad.

Dreaming techniques have been used in many cultures. The are important for religious significance, prophecies and perhaps meditation etc… Do any of these cultures prescribe LD as a way of improving your archery? Your business acumen? Do any of the ancients prescribe dream methods for memorization. Back in the day memory palaces were not a hobby. Before the printing press they were vital.

I too am interested in LD. I think it’s fascinating. I’m very skeptical of all the BS. Perhaps Morley knows what he’s talking about but I’m convinced a lot of people don’t.

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