# A 9 digit versus a 6 digit PAO system **URL:** \ **Category:** General Memory Chat\ **Tags:** pao-system\ **Created:** [April 28, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068 "2022-04-28T18:43:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/fred2)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/1 "2022-04-28T18:43:53Z")
I was pondering upon this problem and wonder if anyone else has thought this through further than I have done? or whether my reasoning (as will be eluded to below) is in actual fact correct? So the issue that is troubling me is basically as follows: If one uses a PAO system of numbers 00-99, one can slot a 6 digit number into each loci in a memory palace. This got me thinking… if one were to use a 3 digit system rather of 000 - 999 PAO, one would be able to slot a 9 digit number into each loci. Assuming one were to remember a 54 digit number using a 00-99 PAO system, then a total of 9 loci would be needed. If one were to use a 000-999 PAO system then the same 54 digit number could be remembered by using a palace method with only 6 loci. Of course the difference between 9 loci and 6 loci is hardly worth mentioning but what if we multiplied the original 54 digit number to be remember by a hundred? In other words, what if one needed to recall a 5 400 digit number? if an image of PAO for 9 digits were used (000-999) then 600 loci would be needed, whereas if the same 5 400 digit number were to be recalled using a 6 digits PAO (00-99) then a far greater number of loci would be needed, namely 900 loci. Now here’s the rub, whilst it may be relatively easy to come up with 1000 People and Objects, how does one come up with 1000 unique ACTIONS? Yes there is a difference between the actions of hitting, punching, pinching, biting, kicking, arm-barring, eye gouging and even a timid Will Smith slapping for ACTIONS to overcome an opponent but can one realistically devise 1 000 unique actions? Thinking about it further it would be a stretch to to come up with 1 000 People. So I’m guessing the answer in short is to develop a greater number of ‘memory palaces’ to solve the problem realistically? Don’t know how everyone else tackles this issue? I know of the Ben system which requires 52! or 2 704 distinctive images for card pairings but the Ben system is a pipe dream for someone like me who does not have aspirations of entering Competitive Memory Competitions. I’m solely interested in the answer to this question for my own personal memory development. Hope my question makes sense to the many ‘brighter folk’ than myself? ---
**Author:** ![Rajadodve786](https://forum.artofmemory.com/user_avatar/forum.artofmemory.com/rajadodve786/32/32911_2.png) [@Rajadodve786](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/Rajadodve786)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2022, 2:56am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/2 "2022-04-29T02:56:47Z")
> [@fred2](#): > > Now here’s the rub, whilst it may be relatively easy to come up with 1000 People and Objects, how does one come up with 1000 unique ACTIONS? Rather than focusing on actions, you can just use your 1000 objects. (You can literally able to fill any actions in it.) **9 digits =\> Person - Object - Object** ---
**Author:** ![fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/fred2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2022, 6:33am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/3 "2022-04-29T06:33:50Z")
Would the Major System for naming 1 000 People be better than the Dominic System? As a first step say using 825 as an example, the Major System gives me (FNL) whereas the Dominic System gives me (HBE)? Or are you suggesting I stick with a mere two-digit System but instead use POO instead of PAO. If that is the case wouldn’t it be confusing to know which of the two objects comes first in your POO system? Could you maybe give me an example using 825 as a number in a nine-digit system translated into POO? Thank you for your reply ---
**Author:** ![Rajadodve786](https://forum.artofmemory.com/user_avatar/forum.artofmemory.com/rajadodve786/32/32911_2.png) [@Rajadodve786](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/Rajadodve786)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2022, 7:40am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/4 "2022-04-29T07:40:30Z")
well, (it’s just my opinion) • People name by letters is faster than dominic system. (I am talking about 3 digit characters here) • I am saying to use POO (if you are going for 9 digits, 3-3-3) If you just want to use 6 digit, then pao is totally fine. •If you use POO in 9 digits, then there is less chance of swapping compare in 6 digit poo. ---
**Author:** ![Rajadodve786](https://forum.artofmemory.com/user_avatar/forum.artofmemory.com/rajadodve786/32/32911_2.png) [@Rajadodve786](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/Rajadodve786)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2022, 7:45am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/5 "2022-04-29T07:45:21Z")
> [@fred2](#): > > (FNL) FNL =\> **vanello** pe - **vanilla** - **vanilla** ![image_search_1651218156368](https://forum.artofmemory.com/uploads/default/original/2X/4/49e4f6d00a62951af4588fe6e8db9058b28b40e8.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![coda](https://forum.artofmemory.com/user_avatar/forum.artofmemory.com/coda/32/28046_2.png) [@coda](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/coda)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2022, 8:15pm UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/6 "2022-04-29T20:15:51Z")
Hmm. How about a PAO+AO? You can have 10 digit clumps in each locus, and you’d only need a proper 00-99. _E.g: 0092027575 → Zeus painting on the sun, and [simultaneously] the sun is killing a koala._ I remain unsure whether or not anyone has done this before, but when desperate times knocked on my chamber; I utilised this method assiduously. It’s not complicated if you’ve memorised some Pi before. ---
**Author:** ![fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/fred2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2022, 10:46pm UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/7 "2022-04-29T22:46:21Z")
I understand the method that you are suggesting but I would imagine that it is still easier to think of a large number in 3 chunks of 3 digits rather than in 5 chunks of 2 digits? Obviously you would only get 9 digits at each loci and not 10 digits that you get using PAO + AO, so your economy of memory palaces used would not be as economical as the 10 digit technique that you are suggesting but I still beieve that ‘shorter’ chunks 3 x 3 would out-trump ‘longer’ chunks 2 x 5 in the PAO + AO method that you are suggesting? There is an obvious trade-off between shorter memory palaces versus longer streams of numbers but the longer numbers become (especially if you chunk them in 2 digit segments), the more elaborate your scenes or stories must neccesarily become which I think would lead to an immense amount of confusion? But that’s only my guess as I would need to experiment further to test my hypothesis. But there again is Zeus painting on the Sun whilst the Sun is killing a Koala not only TWO chunks? You may after all have something there?? ---
**Author:** ![wonder](https://forum.artofmemory.com/user_avatar/forum.artofmemory.com/wonder/32/19413_2.png) [@wonder](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/wonder)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/8 "2022-05-01T22:52:34Z")
The problem with 3-digit PAO is it’s 3000 images. Such a large system is very unwieldy. You say 2704 images of Ben system is a pipe dream but the PAO you are proposing is even larger than that. A 3-digit Ben system is only 1000 for numbers and for cards the modified version of Ben system which has 1326 images can be used. Same goes for a 3-digit Major system. Most of the people I’ve seen who tried to make this sort of PAO used 3-2-3 format going for 100 actions only. I’m certain 1000 unique actions is possible though. Dance moves, fighting techniques, sports techniques, spells/abilities, gestures, and so on. Practising and remembering such a large system enough to be quicker than a smaller system is where the real difficulty lies. If loci is the problem just put 2 PAO per loci. Or make more loci. For a 3-digit number system I would always recommend Ben or Major over PAO because they are 2000 images less at the point where systems are becoming prohibitively large. ---
**Author:** ![fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/fred2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2022, 9:46am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/9 "2022-05-02T09:46:03Z")
You are spot on in your analysis. I ws thinking perhaps another way around things which embraces the last part of what you are suggesting, namely places 2 images at each loci would be to have two independant PAO systems working congruently with one another. I am imaging two independent sets of 100 characters from (00-99) using both the Dominic system and the Major system with no duplication of characters where potential overlaps exist meaning Dominics (66) can under no circumstances use Majors (00) as it would lead to confusion. I am currently putting together a Major system where I’m only using the First names as coding. So my (00) or (SS) in the Major system is SuZi Qartro. In Dominic my (66) or (SS) is Sylvester Stallone. My first 18 numbers in Major system thus far are: (00) SuZi Qartro; (01) SiD James; (02) SoNNy Liston; (03) SaMantha Fox; (04) SaRah Pallin; (05) SoL Kerzner; (06) SaSHin Tendulker; (07) ZiGGy Stardust; (08) SoPHia Loren; SeBastian (character from Little Britain); (10) DeSmond (from Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da fame); (11) “DaDDy” (from Couples Retreat); (12) DaN Akroyd; (13) DaMon Hill; (14) DaRRen Whackhead Simpson; (15) DeLLboy (from Only Fools and Horses); (16) DJ Fresh; (17) DiCK van Dyk; (18) DaFFyd Thomas (Little Britain character). If this system works then effectively I would have 12 numbers (2 sets of PAO systems side by side at each loci. That is: a PAO (Dominic) + PAO (Major). It’s trail and error at this stage but I won’t know how effective the system is until I experiment with it further. Anyone else out there with similiar systems in use? Or is my suggestion too cumbersome??? ---
**Author:** ![3nrd](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/3/ac8455/32.png) [@3nrd](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/3nrd)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:37am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/10 "2022-12-27T04:37:38Z")
It’s not complicated if you’ve memorised some Pi before. 0092027575 zeus paint sun sun kill koala can we continue diligently koala kick lola \<7755\> lola fly rock \<8547\> rock sing oven \<0282\> need loci ? ---
**Author:** ![fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/fred2)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:49am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/11 "2022-12-27T04:49:20Z")
My only problem with ‘chaining’ or ‘linking’ as you are doing is that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Great if you can do it but for a memory competitor under severe time constraints, I doubt they would go that route? From my readings and research I have found that they tend to favour the loci technique. ---
**Author:** ![TheHumanTim](https://forum.artofmemory.com/user_avatar/forum.artofmemory.com/thehumantim/32/17301_2.png) [@TheHumanTim](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/TheHumanTim)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:17pm UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/12 "2022-12-27T15:17:19Z")
> [@fred2](#): > > a chain is only as strong as its weakest link Agreed. I think linking is effective for smaller sequences, but I’d be hesitant to attempt a large scale effort solely relying on it. A 2-digit Person-Action-Adjective-Object system gets you 8 digits per image with no linking needed and only 100 additional words to come up with. I used this approach to memorize 4325 digits of Pi. Example: using the adjective to describe the object: 14159265 - TaRa DoLLing BoNy JeLLo or if you want to use the adjective to describe the person: 14159265 - DouR DoLLy PiNNing JeLLo or you could even use two people in the image instead of an object: 14159265 - DouR DoLLy PiNNing J-Lo 14159265 - TaRa DoLLing BoNy J-Lo Lots of options on how to structure your scene. ---
**Author:** ![fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/fred2)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/13 "2022-12-28T02:16:17Z")
Your method is more optimal than a PAO which only gets you 6 digits of Pi at each letter. BoNy is an excellent ‘adjective’ for #92. May I ask if you’ve posted your list of 100 adjectives anywhere previously onto the group, and if not would you be willing to share them with us? Your only choice to make is whether you are going to be ‘qualifying’ your Person with the ‘adjective’ or your Object with the adjective. Personally, I would not flip-flop between the two. Once I say have made the decision that it is my ‘Object’ say that gets ‘qualified’, I would stick with that choice throughout my exercise of memorizing Pi for consistencies sake! ---
**Author:** ![fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@fred2](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/fred2)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 2:31am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/14 "2022-12-28T02:31:08Z")
> [@Post your 0-99 List here for other people to use... feel free to add](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/post-your-0-99-list-here-for-other-people-to-use-feel-free-to-add/28338): > > I decided to start a thread called “Post Your -99 List” to possibly save some people some time and hassle in trying to complete their list. A far as I know almost everyone is trying to improve upon what they have and can use a little help. A perfect example was last week when someone mentiond offhand a few off their PAO list and I thought “Damn, I could use a couple of those because my AD (14) was just not working for me.” Thus my new 14 is ADele holding a Grammy. (Thanks to DH) Clubs – … I have answered my own question here. Thanks @TheHumanTim for posting your ‘adjectives’. I see you have also posted your ‘locations’ to. Why stop at 8 digits of Pi per location when you can effectively get to 10 digits of Pi at each loci?!! ---
**Author:** ![TheHumanTim](https://forum.artofmemory.com/user_avatar/forum.artofmemory.com/thehumantim/32/17301_2.png) [@TheHumanTim](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/TheHumanTim)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/15 "2022-12-28T23:09:08Z")
> [@fred2](#): > > Why stop at 8 digits of Pi per location when you can effectively get to 10 digits of Pi at each loci?!! I’ve found the “location” element useful in smaller scale short-term memorizing at the start of a sequence. These would usually be used INSTEAD of loci in a memory palace, almost like self-generated automatic loci, but for something like thousands of digits of pi, you really need a structured journey with logically connected non-repeating locations so as not to lose your place. It works great as a starting point for binary to set a scene. I can compress the red-black sequence of a full deck of 54 cards (including jokers) into a single image with the format: “at (location1), (person1) does (action1) to/with (person2)'s (adjective1)-(object1), while (person3) does (action2) to/with (object2).” Haven’t found a very advantageous use beyond thattl, but there could be similar applications! ---
**Author:** ![3nrd](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/3/ac8455/32.png) [@3nrd](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/3nrd)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2022, 4:14am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/16 "2022-12-29T04:14:57Z")
1000 actions? Kicking is not one action. I expect mom can picture many different actions of a baby that would be kicking. Tantrum, pre birth, play. Boxers have jab uppercut roundhouse. I expect even karate novices have many ways to strike. It might occur that after you refine 100 actions with one year of use, you have quite naturally several useful ways to distinguish crying. Also many actions that did not make your 100 list still want to come out and play. e. g. Play. e. g. Stop. e. g. Go. e. g. Think. It appears most anything can be P. From Aardvark to Zeus, so why not 1000 esp w/ using multiple systems as you do? ---
**Author:** ![sevenjustforgot](https://forum.artofmemory.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@sevenjustforgot](https://forum.artofmemory.com/u/sevenjustforgot)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/a-9-digit-versus-a-6-digit-pao-system/73068/17 "2023-03-26T00:02:31Z")
I know someone who uses the poo aspect but to remember the order has it done in alphabetical order. The person matches with the number (they use the Dominic System) and the objects are quite random or maybe the first one has to do with the person but the second one doesn’t.